Honestly don't know and don't care. My vehciles are specified for 5w20 and that is what they use.
Ford 5.4l 3v design /5w20
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Lord, but this is an old argument.
If Ford, or Honda, or Tatra specs a 5W-20, they do so secure in the knowledge that the oil will allow the engine to remain in good shape for the life of the vehicle in which it's installed.
The life of most vehicles is not determined by the life of the engine.
It is determined by the life of the entire assembly, or by that of the automatic transmission.
It would be of no value to spec an oil allowing another 20K of engine life, at the cost of greater fuel consumption through the useful life of the vehicle, for a vehichle that will have long since been to the scrap yard, parted and crushed.
It accomplishes nothing to try to extend engine life beyond that of the vehicle in which it's installed.
If Ford, or Honda, or Tatra specs a 5W-20, they do so secure in the knowledge that the oil will allow the engine to remain in good shape for the life of the vehicle in which it's installed.
The life of most vehicles is not determined by the life of the engine.
It is determined by the life of the entire assembly, or by that of the automatic transmission.
It would be of no value to spec an oil allowing another 20K of engine life, at the cost of greater fuel consumption through the useful life of the vehicle, for a vehichle that will have long since been to the scrap yard, parted and crushed.
It accomplishes nothing to try to extend engine life beyond that of the vehicle in which it's installed.
I won't try to speak to every engine on the face of the earth, but in the Ford modular 3V, 5W20 delivers nominal performance. In the cases it doesn't, it because the engine is outside the temperature or operational parameters. I know MY '05 5.4L oil temp, which I monitor religiously, seldom goes over 200F, even in hot weather at work. Another board member has a 5.4L with which he tows and he sees temps as high as 220 climbing hills. These are not exceptionally high oil temps that require a viscosity upgrade.
Oddly enough, after over a year running 10W30 (more on that in a minute), some of the highest temps recorded were on 10W30. Yep, fluid friction raised my normal operating oil temps by 5-10 degrees.
I switched my "fleet" (car, trucks & farm tractors, gas & diesel) over to one oil, which was within the range of specs for all but not necessarily optimal for all. That oil was a 10W30 HDEO. I was most worried about the 10W30 in the VCT 5.4L 3V engine, so I did a test, datalogging VCT operation in hot and cold weather over a year-plus. I can report (and you can read my post here VCT Operation for details, there was no significant changes in VCT operation but my oil pressure did rise significantly at all oil temps... especially cold. The downside of this is that I am likely putting the oil filter into bypass more often during cold starts... something I do not like. After all this time, I can also see a slight downtick in mpg.
My opinion is that, outside certain operation parameters, 5W20 is nominal for the most modulars and optimal for many. They "work" with higher viscosity oils, as I have proven, but I don't think it's optimal. Any arguments that a heavier oil is "better" generally cannot be backed up by data. Neither, necessarily can the opposite be proved without some side by side testing... which has NOT been done, or at least if they have, they are not available to the public.
The things that tip the balance in favor of 5W20 are that Ford ran a poopload of certification tests more than a decade ago and the oil they specified (it's more than just viscosity... it has to meet other standards) passed the tests. The millions of engines in service, delivering reliable service, further prove the concept. Heavier oil is not automatically "better" for a modular. If there is a comprehensive testing out there with an equal footprint of what Ford did, and the service record since, and it shows a heavier oil is better, by all means let's see it.
Oddly enough, after over a year running 10W30 (more on that in a minute), some of the highest temps recorded were on 10W30. Yep, fluid friction raised my normal operating oil temps by 5-10 degrees.
I switched my "fleet" (car, trucks & farm tractors, gas & diesel) over to one oil, which was within the range of specs for all but not necessarily optimal for all. That oil was a 10W30 HDEO. I was most worried about the 10W30 in the VCT 5.4L 3V engine, so I did a test, datalogging VCT operation in hot and cold weather over a year-plus. I can report (and you can read my post here VCT Operation for details, there was no significant changes in VCT operation but my oil pressure did rise significantly at all oil temps... especially cold. The downside of this is that I am likely putting the oil filter into bypass more often during cold starts... something I do not like. After all this time, I can also see a slight downtick in mpg.
My opinion is that, outside certain operation parameters, 5W20 is nominal for the most modulars and optimal for many. They "work" with higher viscosity oils, as I have proven, but I don't think it's optimal. Any arguments that a heavier oil is "better" generally cannot be backed up by data. Neither, necessarily can the opposite be proved without some side by side testing... which has NOT been done, or at least if they have, they are not available to the public.
The things that tip the balance in favor of 5W20 are that Ford ran a poopload of certification tests more than a decade ago and the oil they specified (it's more than just viscosity... it has to meet other standards) passed the tests. The millions of engines in service, delivering reliable service, further prove the concept. Heavier oil is not automatically "better" for a modular. If there is a comprehensive testing out there with an equal footprint of what Ford did, and the service record since, and it shows a heavier oil is better, by all means let's see it.
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
I won't try to speak to every engine on the face of the earth, but in the Ford modular 3V, 5W20 delivers nominal performance. In the cases it doesn't, it because the engine is outside the temperature or operational parameters. I know MY '05 5.4L oil temp, which I monitor religiously, seldom goes over 200F, even in hot weather at work. Another board member has a 5.4L with which he tows and he sees temps as high as 220 climbing hills. These are not exceptionally high oil temps that require a viscosity upgrade.
Oddly enough, after over a year running 10W30 (more on that in a minute), some of the highest temps recorded were on 10W30. Yep, fluid friction raised my normal operating oil temps by 5-10 degrees.
I switched my "fleet" (car, trucks & farm tractors, gas & diesel) over to one oil, which was within the range of specs for all but not necessarily optimal for all. That oil was a 10W30 HDEO. I was most worried about the 10W30 in the VCT 5.4L 3V engine, so I did a test, datalogging VCT operation in hot and cold weather over a year-plus. I can report (and you can read my post here VCT Operation for details, there was no significant changes in VCT operation but my oil pressure did rise significantly at all oil temps... especially cold. The downside of this is that I am likely putting the oil filter into bypass more often during cold starts... something I do not like. After all this time, I can also see a slight downtick in mpg.
My opinion is that, outside certain operation parameters, 5W20 is nominal for the most modulars and optimal for many. They "work" with higher viscosity oils, as I have proven, but I don't think it's optimal. Any arguments that a heavier oil is "better" generally cannot be backed up by data. Neither, necessarily can the opposite be proved without some side by side testing... which has NOT been done, or at least if they have, they are not available to the public.
The things that tip the balance in favor of 5W20 are that Ford ran a poopload of certification tests more than a decade ago and the oil they specified (it's more than just viscosity... it has to meet other standards) passed the tests. The millions of engines in service, delivering reliable service, further prove the concept. Heavier oil is not automatically "better" for a modular. If there is a comprehensive testing out there with an equal footprint of what Ford did, and the service record since, and it shows a heavier oil is better, by all means let's see it.
Once again an excellent and informative post. Thank you sir.
I won't try to speak to every engine on the face of the earth, but in the Ford modular 3V, 5W20 delivers nominal performance. In the cases it doesn't, it because the engine is outside the temperature or operational parameters. I know MY '05 5.4L oil temp, which I monitor religiously, seldom goes over 200F, even in hot weather at work. Another board member has a 5.4L with which he tows and he sees temps as high as 220 climbing hills. These are not exceptionally high oil temps that require a viscosity upgrade.
Oddly enough, after over a year running 10W30 (more on that in a minute), some of the highest temps recorded were on 10W30. Yep, fluid friction raised my normal operating oil temps by 5-10 degrees.
I switched my "fleet" (car, trucks & farm tractors, gas & diesel) over to one oil, which was within the range of specs for all but not necessarily optimal for all. That oil was a 10W30 HDEO. I was most worried about the 10W30 in the VCT 5.4L 3V engine, so I did a test, datalogging VCT operation in hot and cold weather over a year-plus. I can report (and you can read my post here VCT Operation for details, there was no significant changes in VCT operation but my oil pressure did rise significantly at all oil temps... especially cold. The downside of this is that I am likely putting the oil filter into bypass more often during cold starts... something I do not like. After all this time, I can also see a slight downtick in mpg.
My opinion is that, outside certain operation parameters, 5W20 is nominal for the most modulars and optimal for many. They "work" with higher viscosity oils, as I have proven, but I don't think it's optimal. Any arguments that a heavier oil is "better" generally cannot be backed up by data. Neither, necessarily can the opposite be proved without some side by side testing... which has NOT been done, or at least if they have, they are not available to the public.
The things that tip the balance in favor of 5W20 are that Ford ran a poopload of certification tests more than a decade ago and the oil they specified (it's more than just viscosity... it has to meet other standards) passed the tests. The millions of engines in service, delivering reliable service, further prove the concept. Heavier oil is not automatically "better" for a modular. If there is a comprehensive testing out there with an equal footprint of what Ford did, and the service record since, and it shows a heavier oil is better, by all means let's see it.
Once again an excellent and informative post. Thank you sir.
For those that doubt the Ford modular will not last to 300k miles on 5w20 should read the following article.
How cabbies get 300k miles
There are many reasons to run 5w20 in modulars specified for it (bearing eccentricity, low tension piston rings, metered orifices, etc). You can run a 30wt but it is not optimal.
Just put what Ford says and move on. You trust Ford enough to buy their product, trust them when they recommend what is best for your vehicle.
How cabbies get 300k miles
There are many reasons to run 5w20 in modulars specified for it (bearing eccentricity, low tension piston rings, metered orifices, etc). You can run a 30wt but it is not optimal.
Just put what Ford says and move on. You trust Ford enough to buy their product, trust them when they recommend what is best for your vehicle.
Originally Posted By: modularv8
For those that doubt the Ford modular will not last to 300k miles on 5w20 should read the following article.
How cabbies get 300k miles
There are many reasons to run 5w20 in modulars specified for it (bearing eccentricity, low tension piston rings, metered orifices, etc). You can run a 30wt but it is not optimal.
Just put what Ford says and move on. You trust Ford enough to buy their product, trust them when they recommend what is best for your vehicle.
Was just fine till Ford came out with the CAFE 5W-20, in the same engines... Yes I've checked clearance specifications for a '98 & '02, 2v 4.6, are exactly same...
Seems they get 300K mi using 5W-20 AND 5w30 so basically it's a moot point...
For those that doubt the Ford modular will not last to 300k miles on 5w20 should read the following article.
How cabbies get 300k miles
There are many reasons to run 5w20 in modulars specified for it (bearing eccentricity, low tension piston rings, metered orifices, etc). You can run a 30wt but it is not optimal.
Just put what Ford says and move on. You trust Ford enough to buy their product, trust them when they recommend what is best for your vehicle.
Was just fine till Ford came out with the CAFE 5W-20, in the same engines... Yes I've checked clearance specifications for a '98 & '02, 2v 4.6, are exactly same...
Seems they get 300K mi using 5W-20 AND 5w30 so basically it's a moot point...
Originally Posted By: TFB1
Was just fine till Ford came out with the CAFE 5W-20, in the same engines... Yes I've checked clearance specifications for a '98 & '02, 2v 4.6, are exactly same...
Clearances didn't change either when 10w30 (and 5w30) came out to replace 40 grades, and that was another fuel economy driven change.
Was just fine till Ford came out with the CAFE 5W-20, in the same engines... Yes I've checked clearance specifications for a '98 & '02, 2v 4.6, are exactly same...
Clearances didn't change either when 10w30 (and 5w30) came out to replace 40 grades, and that was another fuel economy driven change.
let me be the devils addvocate,how do we know when for example ford knowingly says use 5w20 to purposely make your engine last only so long say 130,000 miles? then it falls apart..makes you buy a new car? use cheap parts etc. or am i worring too much? thats why i use a low 5w30 in my fords...i asked ford svt about my raptor.they told me i can use a 5w30 when i push it in off road..they said 5w30 will not hurt anything at all!
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Originally Posted By: boxcartommie22
let me be the devils addvocate,how do we know when for example ford knowingly says use 5w20 to purposely make your engine last only so long say 130,000 miles?
Well, then other manufacturers that use 5w-20 would either have to be in on it or found away around any "limitations" on 5w-20. Aside from that, vehicle reliability and longevity are a major selling point. While I'm not naive enough to think that all automakers use the best parts and make no compromises with respect to longevity and durability, I highly doubt that any big automaker would deliberately sabotage their vehicles.
That might work with a product that is essentially consumable, but I wouldn't consider it wise for vehicles. Considering 5w-20 has been around for a good deal of time, with vehicles lasting longer than ever, I doubt it's an issue. Besides, rarely is the engine the limiting factor in a vehicle's lifespan.
let me be the devils addvocate,how do we know when for example ford knowingly says use 5w20 to purposely make your engine last only so long say 130,000 miles?
Well, then other manufacturers that use 5w-20 would either have to be in on it or found away around any "limitations" on 5w-20. Aside from that, vehicle reliability and longevity are a major selling point. While I'm not naive enough to think that all automakers use the best parts and make no compromises with respect to longevity and durability, I highly doubt that any big automaker would deliberately sabotage their vehicles.
That might work with a product that is essentially consumable, but I wouldn't consider it wise for vehicles. Considering 5w-20 has been around for a good deal of time, with vehicles lasting longer than ever, I doubt it's an issue. Besides, rarely is the engine the limiting factor in a vehicle's lifespan.
Anyone who does not believe that planned obsolescence is a part of the car maker's thought processes is just kidding themselves.
There is always a lifespan consideration. For example, Lexus lowered the redline on the IS-F V-8 strictly because they needed to reach their target for long term durability.
But I feel certain if 20w is being recommended in writing there was testing done to prove that it did not compromise longevity.
Word for word from the other thread.
This is an old and many times rehashed subject.
zzzzzzz...
There is always a lifespan consideration. For example, Lexus lowered the redline on the IS-F V-8 strictly because they needed to reach their target for long term durability.
But I feel certain if 20w is being recommended in writing there was testing done to prove that it did not compromise longevity.
Word for word from the other thread.
This is an old and many times rehashed subject.
zzzzzzz...
Originally Posted By: Garak
Besides, rarely is the engine the limiting factor in a vehicle's lifespan.
Up in your neck of the woods that's true, but it's common for the local auctions to have buyers from northern states buying our nice, rust free, southern, vehicles that have bad engines or transmissions... Down here we junk vehicles with rust, almost no one will buy them...
One of the local guys was buying for northern customer... When he had a load, they'd send they'd send the hauler down to pick up the nice, rust free, southern, vehicles and take them north...
BTW did I mention we have nice, rust free vehicles here in the south???
Besides, rarely is the engine the limiting factor in a vehicle's lifespan.
Up in your neck of the woods that's true, but it's common for the local auctions to have buyers from northern states buying our nice, rust free, southern, vehicles that have bad engines or transmissions... Down here we junk vehicles with rust, almost no one will buy them...
One of the local guys was buying for northern customer... When he had a load, they'd send they'd send the hauler down to pick up the nice, rust free, southern, vehicles and take them north...
BTW did I mention we have nice, rust free vehicles here in the south???
Originally Posted By: TFB1
Up in your neck of the woods that's true, but it's common for the local auctions to have buyers from northern states buying our nice, rust free, southern, vehicles that have bad engines or transmissions... Down here we junk vehicles with rust, almost no one will buy them...
We do get rust free vehicles here, too. We also certainly get cars that are junked because of engine issues, too. Those, however, tend to be because people never took care of them in the first place.
In the taxi industry, chassis problems, occasionally rust, and most often transmission problems were the limiting factors in a vehicle's life.
Up in your neck of the woods that's true, but it's common for the local auctions to have buyers from northern states buying our nice, rust free, southern, vehicles that have bad engines or transmissions... Down here we junk vehicles with rust, almost no one will buy them...
We do get rust free vehicles here, too. We also certainly get cars that are junked because of engine issues, too. Those, however, tend to be because people never took care of them in the first place.
In the taxi industry, chassis problems, occasionally rust, and most often transmission problems were the limiting factors in a vehicle's life.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Lord, but this is an old argument.
If Ford, or Honda, or Tatra specs a 5W-20, they do so secure in the knowledge that the oil will allow the engine to remain in good shape for the life of the vehicle in which it's installed.
The life of most vehicles is not determined by the life of the engine.
It is determined by the life of the entire assembly, or by that of the automatic transmission.
It would be of no value to spec an oil allowing another 20K of engine life, at the cost of greater fuel consumption through the useful life of the vehicle, for a vehichle that will have long since been to the scrap yard, parted and crushed.
It accomplishes nothing to try to extend engine life beyond that of the vehicle in which it's installed.
Great points.
Lord, but this is an old argument.
If Ford, or Honda, or Tatra specs a 5W-20, they do so secure in the knowledge that the oil will allow the engine to remain in good shape for the life of the vehicle in which it's installed.
The life of most vehicles is not determined by the life of the engine.
It is determined by the life of the entire assembly, or by that of the automatic transmission.
It would be of no value to spec an oil allowing another 20K of engine life, at the cost of greater fuel consumption through the useful life of the vehicle, for a vehichle that will have long since been to the scrap yard, parted and crushed.
It accomplishes nothing to try to extend engine life beyond that of the vehicle in which it's installed.
Great points.
Originally Posted By: TFB1
Originally Posted By: Garak
Besides, rarely is the engine the limiting factor in a vehicle's lifespan.
Up in your neck of the woods that's true, but it's common for the local auctions to have buyers from northern states buying our nice, rust free, southern, vehicles that have bad engines or transmissions... Down here we junk vehicles with rust, almost no one will buy them...
One of the local guys was buying for northern customer... When he had a load, they'd send they'd send the hauler down to pick up the nice, rust free, southern, vehicles and take them north...
BTW did I mention we have nice, rust free vehicles here in the south???
We have nice rust free vehicles in the desert south west also. The engine is normally the last major component to fail. Other factors are the cause to send a vehicle to its grave around here IE accidents and the perception of cost to maintain and repair is not worth the vehicle. Ask Cubans how well last reason has worked for them the last 50 years.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Besides, rarely is the engine the limiting factor in a vehicle's lifespan.
Up in your neck of the woods that's true, but it's common for the local auctions to have buyers from northern states buying our nice, rust free, southern, vehicles that have bad engines or transmissions... Down here we junk vehicles with rust, almost no one will buy them...
One of the local guys was buying for northern customer... When he had a load, they'd send they'd send the hauler down to pick up the nice, rust free, southern, vehicles and take them north...
BTW did I mention we have nice, rust free vehicles here in the south???
We have nice rust free vehicles in the desert south west also. The engine is normally the last major component to fail. Other factors are the cause to send a vehicle to its grave around here IE accidents and the perception of cost to maintain and repair is not worth the vehicle. Ask Cubans how well last reason has worked for them the last 50 years.
Originally Posted By: dave1251
We have nice rust free vehicles in the desert south west also. The engine is normally the last major component to fail.
We have had many rust free taxis vanish from service with good engines, too. There are collisions. Transmissions get troublesome to the point where they're eating too much money and costing too much shop time. Door hinges and other miscellaneous hardware actually wear out. Body dings get to the point where the vehicle becomes an eyesore. Bushings and the like harden to the point a vehicle becomes a rattle trap. Interior trim pieces wear and discolour and become rather ugly.
I haven't retired a taxi because of an engine yet. However, when the above things begin to accumulate, that's the problem. However, no one's going to spend $5,000 redoing the body on a taxi for appearance reasons or playing hide and seek with miscellaneous bushings to locate noises. Rebuilding door hinges becomes a moot point when none of the original metal is left - one can only weld and reweld so many times until you have to replace the door, and then the body work issue comes back.
Even in a worst case scenario, an engine isn't all that big of a deal. A rebuild can be knocked off in one day if one plans correctly, and then it's done. The other little gremlins are not so compliant.
We have nice rust free vehicles in the desert south west also. The engine is normally the last major component to fail.
We have had many rust free taxis vanish from service with good engines, too. There are collisions. Transmissions get troublesome to the point where they're eating too much money and costing too much shop time. Door hinges and other miscellaneous hardware actually wear out. Body dings get to the point where the vehicle becomes an eyesore. Bushings and the like harden to the point a vehicle becomes a rattle trap. Interior trim pieces wear and discolour and become rather ugly.
I haven't retired a taxi because of an engine yet. However, when the above things begin to accumulate, that's the problem. However, no one's going to spend $5,000 redoing the body on a taxi for appearance reasons or playing hide and seek with miscellaneous bushings to locate noises. Rebuilding door hinges becomes a moot point when none of the original metal is left - one can only weld and reweld so many times until you have to replace the door, and then the body work issue comes back.
Even in a worst case scenario, an engine isn't all that big of a deal. A rebuild can be knocked off in one day if one plans correctly, and then it's done. The other little gremlins are not so compliant.
i have been using 5w30 in my 5.4 for 30k now and have not had any problems. it just rattles a bit less now..... my engine needs phasers, vct solenoids and a timing chain. but i cant see spending the money on an engine with 150k. im betting i will hit 200k with out an issue, then rebuild the engine.
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