Flow versus filtration - where's the balance?

[UNC017]

Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko


There are some instances I would agree with you, but my experience with both Japanese and European cars that I've owned makes me very cautiously considering my oil filter. In my experience, many aftermarket parts just do not fit properly and your vehicle leaks, squeaks, groans or otherwise runs like excrement. Conversely, if you use OEM parts, you can be confident that your vehicle will run just as the factory designed it to!

My concern has also been verified by one of my Brother-In-Laws who has managed Napa parts stores as well as both parts departments for Nissan and Ford.

Ed


To put a fine point on it: rubbish. There are only 4 parameters that the aftermarket filter has to get correct in order to "fit right." Thread pitch, gasket diameter, external dimensions, and relief valve pressure. How well and consistently it works once those parameters are met is what really matters, and that depends on what's invisible to you inside the canister.

Its also been documented here that the innards of dealer-purchased Denso filters are different than factory installed Denso filters, whereas we all know quite precisely what the insides of a Fram Ultra look like and what materials are used- and they're very good.

This just isn't an issue for oil filters.

 

[Ed_Flecko]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko


There are some instances I would agree with you, but my experience with both Japanese and European cars that I've owned makes me very cautiously considering my oil filter. In my experience, many aftermarket parts just do not fit properly and your vehicle leaks, squeaks, groans or otherwise runs like excrement. Conversely, if you use OEM parts, you can be confident that your vehicle will run just as the factory designed it to!

My concern has also been verified by one of my Brother-In-Laws who has managed Napa parts stores as well as both parts departments for Nissan and Ford.

Ed


To put a fine point on it: rubbish. There are only 4 parameters that the aftermarket filter has to get correct in order to "fit right." Thread pitch, gasket diameter, external dimensions, and relief valve pressure. How well and consistently it works once those parameters are met is what really matters, and that depends on what's invisible to you inside the canister.

Its also been documented here that the innards of dealer-purchased Denso filters are different than factory installed Denso filters, whereas we all know quite precisely what the insides of a Fram Ultra look like and what materials are used- and they're very good.

This just isn't an issue for oil filters.


I don't doubt you...IF we're talking about oil filters. However, IF we're talking about other parts for the vehicle..."all bets are off".

In the Japanese and/or European realm of cars, *I* use aftermarket parts only in an emergency. Again, in my experience, if you want your vehicle to run like excrement or maybe not run at all because the parts literally will not even fit on the vehicle - go buy your replacement parts ate your friendly auto parts store.

Ed

 

[SilverC6]

All the FRAM Ultra marketing talking points aside, the OEM filter is fine for your Toyota.

Other standard filters available commercially would do an equally fine job for you without spending $9+ at the store.

We tend to overthink it here on BITOG but a standard entry level filter and a house labeled API SN oil changed at a 5,000 mile OCI will get you pretty far down the road.

At least as far as the finest uber filter and an oil pan full of unicorn tears engine oil.

 

[SilverC6]

In my Camrys, I've used Toyota OEM, FRAM Ultra, FRAM OCOD, Purolator, and Wix cartridge style oil filters.

They all work equally well.

 

[badtlc]

Speaking of OEMs, Honda's decision to spec rock catchers for oil filters has me questioning any and all OEM filters due to not knowing their specs. At least with after market parts, I can find out what I'm getting for the most part.

 

[Ed_Flecko]

Originally Posted By: badtlc
Speaking of OEMs, Honda's decision to spec rock catchers for oil filters has me questioning any and all OEM filters due to not knowing their specs. At least with after market parts, I can find out what I'm getting for the most part.


I agree. While I do have a lot of confidence (obviously) with OEM Toyota (Denso) oil filters, I wish they were more transparent with their technical specs.

Ed

 

[UNC151]

Originally Posted By: badtlc
Speaking of OEMs, Honda's decision to spec rock catchers for oil filters has me questioning any and all OEM filters due to not knowing their specs. At least with after market parts, I can find out what I'm getting for the most part.

I tend to think this is true and agree. If it were not for Amsoil we would still be guessing about the efficiency of MC FL-820s filters and could assume that it was the same as a Purolator classic (which it is not).

 

[geeman789]

Originally Posted By: badtlc
Speaking of OEMs, Honda's decision to spec rock catchers for oil filters has me questioning any and all OEM filters due to not knowing their specs. At least with after market parts, I can find out what I'm getting for the most part.


Honda AND Toyota... two of the most dependable brands around... coincidence...?

Maybe FLOW is more important than absolute efficiency. Or maybe 50 % efficiency is perfectly adequate.

Maybe lower efficiency reduces by-pass events, which are ZERO efficiency ... unfiltered oil.

Any one wonder why WIX , a filtration company, would release their flagship filter, the synthetic media XP, and give it such a "poor..." efficiency rating... rumoured to be at 50% ...?

Are they just stupid , or missed the boat on their competitors... or just maybe it's actually ON PURPOSE...!

Seems strange to me that a company like WIX would be so far off the mark, at least compared to FRAM etc.

Or maybe it's all just marketing... and the oil filter really does very little. Many people argue that the air filter is 10x more important to engine longevity. Keep the grit out, and the oil filter doesn't have much to do.

???

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted By: geeman789

Honda AND Toyota... two of the most dependable brands around... coincidence...?

Maybe FLOW is more important than absolute efficiency. Or maybe 50 % efficiency is perfectly adequate.

Maybe lower efficiency reduces by-pass events, which are ZERO efficiency ... unfiltered oil.

....


Is this first statement based on fact? I owned a toyota and the engine killed itself by somewhere around 150k miles with perfect maintenance. I don't trust Toyota as far as i could throw them when it comes to lubrication and filtration.

Study after study has shown that filtration is the #1 way to reduce engine wear but quality filtration takes more effort by the consumer. Toyota and Honda market to the lemmings that don't know any better so it makes sense they would want to spec a filter that wouldn't restrict flow as easily because they know many of their owners have no clue that changing an oil filter is good maintenance practice and that their filters will be run for super long periods of use.

You could get into the argument of "good enough" but that isn't the purpose of this site. This is a place in constant search of "the best" and mediocre filtration is not that.

also Wix publishes the filter efficiencies. No need to throw out "rumors" in order to scare people.

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: geeman789
Honda AND Toyota... two of the most dependable brands around... coincidence...?


I'm just speculating too, but I'd say (at least) 9.5 times out of 10, cars don't have random oil/ oil filter related failures. Assuming all maintenance was performed of course..

Brands have nothing to do with this.

 

[UNC017]

Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko


I don't doubt you...IF we're talking about oil filters. However, IF we're talking about other parts for the vehicle..."all bets are off".

Ed


Well, AREN'T we talking about oil filters???

But even if we widen the discussion to other parts, I can think of exceptions. For a surprisingly large span of time a number of years back, if you went to a Honda dealer for a replacement head gasket for one that had failed, you got another one just like the one that failed and it would fail again, probably even sooner. On the other hand, if you went to a parts store that carried Fel-Pro gaskets you would get an improved multi-layer-steel gasket that would outlive the rest of the engine.

The OEM eventually caught up, but the aftermarket found a weakness and fixed it first. That doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen. There are also times when an automaker itself identifies a weakness and revises their own parts stream and the aftermarket is slower to respond. A case of this type that I remember personally was when Chrysler reduced the drive speed of the water pump on the original iron-block 1993 3.5 v6 to improve water pump life and eliminate a cavitation condition. The aftermarket was still selling the early-style small pulley water pump and slightly longer timing belt for a year or more after the dealers had switched to the newer design parts. Things got extra fun if you mixed an aftermarket belt with a factory water pump or vice-versa! I tend to be very case-by-case in terms of which parts I buy from the dealer and which ones I get from a parts retailer.

 

[Ed_Flecko]

I'm sure there are exceptions.

All I'm saying is that for me, based on my experience for the vehicles I've owned - if I'm going to buy a part that I think is most likely going to be the most applicable...I'll buy OEM. That's my preference, but if want to take a chance on a 3rd party part...that's your right and it's your money.

Ed

 

[geeman789]

Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: geeman789

Honda AND Toyota... two of the most dependable brands around... coincidence...?


....


Is this first statement based on fact? I owned a toyota and the engine killed itself by somewhere around 150k miles with perfect maintenance. I don't trust Toyota as far as i could throw them when it comes to lubrication and filtration.

.


Nope, just making stuff up... or not.

This year’s ratings from Consumer Reports on the most and least reliable new cars are out. There are some big changes in 2014, with the Infiniti dropping the most dramatically in the ranks and an American car manufacturer making the top 10...The survey tracks data on over a million vehicles and 28 brands.

Once again, the most reliable brands are dominated by the Japanese, with Lexus, Toyota, and Mazda taking the top three spots. Honda came in at number four.

 

[dnewton3]

Oh, good! This again ...

When someone shows me conclusive data that shows a statistical correlation indicating that this topic actually matters, then I'll give a darn.

Is it important to have a filter? Yes.
Is it important to worry about flow and efficiency? No!
How do we know this? There are bazillions of engines world-wide that have no access to an anal-retentive BITOG frequent flyer card, and they survive just fine.

Did I mention this?

 

[Skid]

The air filter is important. The oil filter, much less so.

Here's a study (short mileage though) from the State of California, June 2008: Evaluation of High Efficiency Oil Filters in the State Fleet

https://www.dtsc.ca.gov/PollutionPrevention/upload/CIWMB_Oil_Filters_State_Fleet.pdf

"No differences could be ascertained between the Fram X2 and the standard Car Quest filters performance." X2 is now ultra. Car Quest back then were Wix, I believe.

 

[Stewie]

Originally Posted By: Skid
The air filter is important. The oil filter, much less so.

Here's a study (short mileage though) from the State of California, June 2008: Evaluation of High Efficiency Oil Filters in the State Fleet

https://www.dtsc.ca.gov/PollutionPrevention/upload/CIWMB_Oil_Filters_State_Fleet.pdf

"No differences could be ascertained between the Fram X2 and the standard Car Quest filters performance." X2 is now ultra. Car Quest back then were Wix, I believe.


Also depends where you live, here in

oil filter more important as the air is already clean

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Oh, good! This again ...

When someone shows me conclusive data that shows a statistical correlation indicating that this topic actually matters, then I'll give a darn.

Is it important to have a filter? Yes.
Is it important to worry about flow and efficiency? No!
How do we know this? There are bazillions of engines world-wide that have no access to an anal-retentive BITOG frequent flyer card, and they survive just fine.

Did I mention this?

Yeah,

OP ... read this. Basically all oil filters of any well known brand will flow way more than an engine can put out. An engine is ~15 times more restrictive to flow than a typical oil filter. And when a positive displacement oil pump is involved, it will force all output volume through the filter & engine until it hits pressure relief, which is nearly impossible to do when the oil is hot, even at red line.

Read This Thread

There are some very efficient oil filters out there that flow quite well. Therefore IMO, if you want both good flow and high efficiency then run a full synthetic filter. If you don't care about efficiency, then use anything you can find.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: gregk24
Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko
Originally Posted By: gregk24
I was of the same mindset as you when I joined, and I only ran Honda OEM filters in my Accord. You are correct that the engineers know what they are doing when they design the filter, however the great thing about the Fram Ultra is, even though it has great filtration, because it is synthetic media it also allows it to have better flow. That is the only other filter I have used in my Accord besides the OEM filter and they have been great. Honestly I would use one with confidence if I were you.


Thank you for the feedback! As a matter of curiosity, is there any way to confidently know that the flow is as good, or hopefully better, than the OEM?

Ed
You could PM Motorking, he is a member on here and is high-up in the Fram Corporation. I have seen the flow information on the Ultra before, I dont remember what it was but it was more flow than your car will need.


Read this thread from here ---> Link

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko

For me...cost is not an issue. By that I mean that I am not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination, I just feel so strongly in the importance of a quality filter that I'd probably pay $50 for an oil filter if I was convinced that it would be radically better for the longevity of my motor.


Nobody's gonna prove it here. The way I look at it is that the papers on engine wear vs. particle size all say that less particles in the oil leads to less wear.

Is it going to be enough to make any noticeable difference in the way you perceive the way the engine runs ... probably not. Is it something you might be able to measure after 250,000 miles ... could be. So why not run a high efficiency filter if you care about keeping the vehicle a very long time. If you don't care about the vehicle and don't keep them long, then just go to Jiffy Lube and forget about how the vehicles is cared for or maintained ... the next person probably won't know any difference unless it's close to blowing up.

 

[mjoekingz28]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Oh, good! This again ...

When someone shows me conclusive data that shows a statistical correlation indicating that this topic actually matters, then I'll give a darn.

Is it important to have a filter? Yes.
Is it important to worry about flow and efficiency? No!
How do we know this? There are bazillions of engines world-wide that have no access to an anal-retentive BITOG frequent flyer card, and they survive just fine.

Did I mention this?

How do you kind of people know this stuff? Ive heard it alot on here, "there are literally thousands of cars running bulk oil with no name filters running 300k miles on 5k OCIs. How do you KNOW this? Simply, i dont think you do. It is just an assumption to make you sound smart and put the person who is trying to take care of their ride at ease.


I advise you, who use numbers to make a decision, to rely less on the statistics and more on what you can see. Study the can's integrity, gasket, threads and if available, the cut open filters. I learned that there is alot of lying in Autos. I learned this in the hp game and got hooked....the car audio lies didnt affect me THAT much, but it did almost ruin/is ruining a great industry, and now the maintenance game. I dont think ive ever bought a WIX labeled filter, but I wouldnt put much stock in their claim as you shouldnt in any orher company's claim: whether it be high or low.