wow!
FLA1 Motorcraft filter & 100 psi oil pressure
- Thread starter 02Lightning
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Grab a seat, Lightning ...
Oh ..you're the OP ..I guess this could constitute a hijack
Oh ..you're the OP ..I guess this could constitute a hijack
Good enough for me!
But I should point out that oil pump relief has nothing to do with it---oh nevermind!
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Todd, in all fairness, a few of the ultra heavy weights that I highly respected here don't flush with everything I say. They don't slam me too hard because they agree with a good bit of my "the world as Gary sees it (minus the warped perspective) in regards to filters, pumps, and pressures ....so they let me carry on with the hope that I can, ultimately, put a package together that can get their, highly covetted, seal of approval.
Sorta like being head coolie on the Sand Pebble. You're not all that well educated ..but you manage to be clever every once and a while ..and are sorta fun to watch during the learning process.
..just always keep in mind that with everything that I say ..."restrictions and conditions apply" and no assurance of merchantability, written or implied, is expressed. Opinions of the author are not necessarily those of BITOG.
Sorta like being head coolie on the Sand Pebble. You're not all that well educated ..but you manage to be clever every once and a while ..and are sorta fun to watch during the learning process.
..just always keep in mind that with everything that I say ..."restrictions and conditions apply" and no assurance of merchantability, written or implied, is expressed. Opinions of the author are not necessarily those of BITOG.
In this case the engine was not the higher restriction, if it was there would be 0 psid. Pressure, remember builds backwards. If engine was higher restriction outlet side of filter could not be lower than input side. In the cases of positive psid, the filter is more restrictive, in some cases ever so slightly, more in others.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Huh
You need to reword that, I think ..at least part of it.
There is no positive PSID there. The lower reading is the engine ..and it represents the VAST majority of, in this relief situation, of the pressure drop (it's a pressure elevation in non-relief situations). The supply is higher ..and always is in an established flow. If you reread my post, you'll see that I've never seen an upramp in pressure where the needles didn't climb in tandem with the downside needly "pushing" (requires interpretation of figurative word usage) the supply needle ..which would just lead the downside needle by a bit (non-relief). This would also occur in relief events ..except that the engine side would stop at a certain point for a brief amount of time ..and the supply would continue to climb as far as it could (sometimes 82 ..sometimes less if it was really relieving more flow).
[ August 23, 2006, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
There is no positive PSID there. The lower reading is the engine ..and it represents the VAST majority of, in this relief situation, of the pressure drop (it's a pressure elevation in non-relief situations). The supply is higher ..and always is in an established flow. If you reread my post, you'll see that I've never seen an upramp in pressure where the needles didn't climb in tandem with the downside needly "pushing" (requires interpretation of figurative word usage) the supply needle ..which would just lead the downside needle by a bit (non-relief). This would also occur in relief events ..except that the engine side would stop at a certain point for a brief amount of time ..and the supply would continue to climb as far as it could (sometimes 82 ..sometimes less if it was really relieving more flow).
[ August 23, 2006, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
****yet we go from a relief setting to a non relief setting in that time. We're still in the 125+ in CST ..WAY MORE ...yet there is virtually NO PSID. How can this be??? (note Todd, the focus of this offering is to point out that the filter is a non-factor in a non-relief situation. If it was ..surely if you're at some unholy CST ..it would be off the scale. It's not ..as long as you're not in relief. Open relief?? BIG DIFFERENCE.*****
No psid because the engine galleys, bearings, etc. filled with oil and pressure started building BACKWARDS AS IT ALWAYS DOES! At that point the engine became more restrictive than the filter. With a positive psid the FILTER IS MORE RESTRICTIVE THAN THE ENGINE!!! However slight, but if it becomes more than 10psi restrictive than the engine the filter bypass opens to prevent starvation. PUMP RELIEF HAS ZERO, NONE, NADA EFFECT ON PSID OR OIL FLOW TO THE ENGINE UNLESS IT IS STUCK OPEN. When more oil is flowing out of the pump than the engine can use, the excess oil flow causes an increase in pressure. This increase in pressure will force more oil through the engine until the point that the pressure exceeds pump relief valve setting, the valve then opens just enough to relieve the EXCESS flow. The engine receives, sees, has available, the exact same amount (volume)of oil as just before the relief opens. PERIOD. I know, Gary, you will just say prove it. Through these posts and a dozen or so PMs I have tried to get you to understand fluid dynamics but you seem hung up on that relief valve. I know to others, this probably is only one opinion vs. another, and I am fine with that. I think you understand my position, and I understand yours (it's the wrong one)
Sorry couldn't resist!! Good luck. Todd
Doesn't anyone else have an opinion here?????
No psid because the engine galleys, bearings, etc. filled with oil and pressure started building BACKWARDS AS IT ALWAYS DOES! At that point the engine became more restrictive than the filter. With a positive psid the FILTER IS MORE RESTRICTIVE THAN THE ENGINE!!! However slight, but if it becomes more than 10psi restrictive than the engine the filter bypass opens to prevent starvation. PUMP RELIEF HAS ZERO, NONE, NADA EFFECT ON PSID OR OIL FLOW TO THE ENGINE UNLESS IT IS STUCK OPEN. When more oil is flowing out of the pump than the engine can use, the excess oil flow causes an increase in pressure. This increase in pressure will force more oil through the engine until the point that the pressure exceeds pump relief valve setting, the valve then opens just enough to relieve the EXCESS flow. The engine receives, sees, has available, the exact same amount (volume)of oil as just before the relief opens. PERIOD. I know, Gary, you will just say prove it. Through these posts and a dozen or so PMs I have tried to get you to understand fluid dynamics but you seem hung up on that relief valve. I know to others, this probably is only one opinion vs. another, and I am fine with that. I think you understand my position, and I understand yours (it's the wrong one)
Doesn't anyone else have an opinion here?????
Although Gary hasn't realized it yet...he's actually discovered how the Flux Capacitor works. The oil actually travels back in time and re-enters the filter for a second pass, thus raising it's pressure differential, anytime the relief valve opens.quote:
Originally posted by another Todd:
But I should point out that oil pump relief has nothing to do with it---oh nevermind!
Gary, positive psid meaning there is a difference in pressure on the two sides of the media. It is only possible for the supply side of the filter to have a higher pressure
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Shh!! I'm not ready to publish yet.
Gary, I'll get serious for a moment and try to help.
Your using static electrical DC circuits while trying to describe transient responses. You need to apply differential equations to the circuits to model what you're trying to describe. I believe this why many, including myself, had trouble following you in the past.
Transient responses in electrical DC circuits are over in milliseconds, whereas in an engine lubrication system, the events are of a time base to actually be observable.
Your using static electrical DC circuits while trying to describe transient responses. You need to apply differential equations to the circuits to model what you're trying to describe. I believe this why many, including myself, had trouble following you in the past.
Transient responses in electrical DC circuits are over in milliseconds, whereas in an engine lubrication system, the events are of a time base to actually be observable.
"the world as Gary sees it"---I'll buy that!
"You're not all that well educated"---Pretty bold statement, based I suppose on the fact that I disagreed with you on this topic (see previous quote).
"..just always keep in mind that with everything that I say ..."restrictions and conditions apply"---I guess this is your way of now qualifying everything you have said, so when you are wrong you could just heap on "restrictions and conditions" until it changes the equation enough to make your statement is correct.
Give me a break! I am done with this topic. Todd
"You're not all that well educated"---Pretty bold statement, based I suppose on the fact that I disagreed with you on this topic (see previous quote).
"..just always keep in mind that with everything that I say ..."restrictions and conditions apply"---I guess this is your way of now qualifying everything you have said, so when you are wrong you could just heap on "restrictions and conditions" until it changes the equation enough to make your statement is correct.
Give me a break! I am done with this topic. Todd
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
It is a challenge for me since I don't have ammo passed a certain point, 427.
Todd, my statement was totally tongue in cheek. Anything can be non-applicable if you cite a cetain combination of conditions. I can say something ..and someone like yourself can retort "Yeah! But what about when Stallone and Arnold Braunswager get in a fight? Braunswager is stronger ..but Stallone always lasts longer. What about then?" ..and then you go in and show how that is an exceptional situation ..costing millions of $$$ and how both celebs require, not only money, but screen glory for the sake of reputation that may trump certain assumed realities.
The reason that I strongly suggested that you comprehend series circuits where flow is the primary determining factor for resulting pressures is because it is counter to virtually all that we observe in real life. Once you grasped that concept ..then it would be far easier to understand that when this is no longer the case that stuff that is not possible under those conditions ..can occur. Those, potentially radical, differences are kept in check for effect by the filter's bypass valve or inblock mechanism. We've even seen, in catostophic failure, what can occur when a filter bypass mechanism is defeated. I can speak from experience that it is unlikely that you'll ever load a filter to the bypass level in any reasonable usage. I've also observed personally that pressure differentials are negligible when no relief event is occuring. To think that an oil's viscosity has changed that much within a short span of time is unrealistic if you index it to the change in observed events. That is, subfreezing heavy oil is unlikely not to be subfreezing heavy oil in a fractional cycle through the engine ...and that same sump at a mean change in temp of 10F or 20F would, most likely, react the same way upon start up. That is, where I normally get relief (and elevated PSID) for 1 minute ..if I dropped the ambient another 15F ..or lessened it 15F ..the same event is likely to occur. Sure we can cite localized heating of the oil ..but one would tend to think that the sump, mostly unchanged for the majority, if not the entirety, of this event would supply ample motor honey for the process to continue for quite a while. That leads me to believe that this is just the freight train where the engine spins its wheels while the mass that it must get moving needs time to "catch" up. This transitional period shows itself with more applied pressure(in our case max pressure) and a higher differential differential. As the flows become more matched and in synch with each other ..the differential, of whatever amplitude or severity, retreats.
Todd, my statement was totally tongue in cheek. Anything can be non-applicable if you cite a cetain combination of conditions. I can say something ..and someone like yourself can retort "Yeah! But what about when Stallone and Arnold Braunswager get in a fight? Braunswager is stronger ..but Stallone always lasts longer. What about then?" ..and then you go in and show how that is an exceptional situation ..costing millions of $$$ and how both celebs require, not only money, but screen glory for the sake of reputation that may trump certain assumed realities.
The reason that I strongly suggested that you comprehend series circuits where flow is the primary determining factor for resulting pressures is because it is counter to virtually all that we observe in real life. Once you grasped that concept ..then it would be far easier to understand that when this is no longer the case that stuff that is not possible under those conditions ..can occur. Those, potentially radical, differences are kept in check for effect by the filter's bypass valve or inblock mechanism. We've even seen, in catostophic failure, what can occur when a filter bypass mechanism is defeated. I can speak from experience that it is unlikely that you'll ever load a filter to the bypass level in any reasonable usage. I've also observed personally that pressure differentials are negligible when no relief event is occuring. To think that an oil's viscosity has changed that much within a short span of time is unrealistic if you index it to the change in observed events. That is, subfreezing heavy oil is unlikely not to be subfreezing heavy oil in a fractional cycle through the engine ...and that same sump at a mean change in temp of 10F or 20F would, most likely, react the same way upon start up. That is, where I normally get relief (and elevated PSID) for 1 minute ..if I dropped the ambient another 15F ..or lessened it 15F ..the same event is likely to occur. Sure we can cite localized heating of the oil ..but one would tend to think that the sump, mostly unchanged for the majority, if not the entirety, of this event would supply ample motor honey for the process to continue for quite a while. That leads me to believe that this is just the freight train where the engine spins its wheels while the mass that it must get moving needs time to "catch" up. This transitional period shows itself with more applied pressure(in our case max pressure) and a higher differential differential. As the flows become more matched and in synch with each other ..the differential, of whatever amplitude or severity, retreats.
Gary...I feel for ya' brother. It's never going to be easy to explain. Especially when someone gets a steady-state DC circuit with passive elements firmly entrenched in their brain. Your modeling the engine as a simple resistor, which it isn't in reality. The faster the engine rotates the more the oil is heated in the bearings thus lowering the resistance. Same with the hydrodynamic bearing pumping and the main to rod bearing passage centrifugal pumping effect.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Sure, you've pointed this out and how, at some point ..it's pretty indistinguishible between pumping the oil ..and having it drawn through the bearings (visions of adhesive being applied to a roller in a calander lamination table- the rotating mass "takes it away").
But in this limited discussion, we're totally focused on how relief action effects filter differentials. It's not the whole nut being cracked here.
This is effectively power transmission in fluid form and would be no different then an other type of fluid transmission. Even a fluid coupling reacts this way to a great degree. The filter media is our dividing line view of the difference between power applied and realized effective motion. It is a choke.
Max power applied ...variable motion. The mass of oil cannot accellerate to maintain a continuous, integrated, flow. Look at it as surge control if you must.
My stance is very simple. Aside from loading (which I believe takes a very long time for most), your max potential for PSID across the filter is in a relief situation. Hence your most likely bypass event will also include the pump being in relief.
[ August 24, 2006, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
But in this limited discussion, we're totally focused on how relief action effects filter differentials. It's not the whole nut being cracked here.
This is effectively power transmission in fluid form and would be no different then an other type of fluid transmission. Even a fluid coupling reacts this way to a great degree. The filter media is our dividing line view of the difference between power applied and realized effective motion. It is a choke.
Max power applied ...variable motion. The mass of oil cannot accellerate to maintain a continuous, integrated, flow. Look at it as surge control if you must.
My stance is very simple. Aside from loading (which I believe takes a very long time for most), your max potential for PSID across the filter is in a relief situation. Hence your most likely bypass event will also include the pump being in relief.
[ August 24, 2006, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
Concurr. And my DC circuit with the variable resistor representing the engine with a function that varies resistance inversely proportional to RPMs works perfectly.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
Ah (that satisfied feeling - it can happen any time during the day - that first cup of coffee, the morning delight with the sqeeze of choice "That scent ..that scent" as Pacino said ..or the most creative moment of most of our days ..
) at last ...a nod from one of our most esteemed members ..who grants no approval before its time ....
Now back to the boiler room on the Sand Pebble
Now back to the boiler room on the Sand Pebble
Oh...I think it's more like U-571.
Marine Maj. Coonan (David Keith ): How far down does this ship go?
Lt. Commander Mike Dahlgren (Bill Paxton): Oh, she'll go all the way to the bottom if we don't stop her.
Marine Maj. Coonan (David Keith ): How far down does this ship go?
Lt. Commander Mike Dahlgren (Bill Paxton): Oh, she'll go all the way to the bottom if we don't stop her.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,799
This is beginning to enter into my thicker frontal plate here. It would appear identical to my observations. In my observations of the engine side meeting and pushing the supply side pressure ..the evacuation of engine side oil would be just as valid at allowing the pump output and the engine flow to approach unity (or as close as they're gonna get in engines where the pump is always in some state of relief). In this conceptual view, reduced resistance down stream would indeed increase pressure due to having "more room" for pump output.quote:
Originally posted by 427Z06:
Concurr. And my DC circuit with the variable resistor representing the engine with a function that varies resistance inversely proportional to RPMs works perfectly.
I still liked my way better ...but this works just as good.
- Status
