Not sure what is meant by trolling
FLA1 Motorcraft filter & 100 psi oil pressure
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BTW-in the above example the filter media never sees more than 10 psi, even with 80 psi oil pressure. The filter bypass doesn't allow it
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Keithwell, "same psi with thinner oil mean its flowing more oil?" errr maybe. Pump is pumping same amount at same rpm, the only way you could have more flow to the engine with same rpm is if the relief was open with the thicker oil and dumping pressure (and reducing flow). It may be open and dumping with the thinner oil too, but probably dumping less, therefore, yes more flow to the engine. IMO, With thicker oil, you will flow the same as with thinner oil up until the point that the relief valve opens at max psi and starts dumping. At that rpm a thinner oil would have less pressure, and with further increased rpm will flow at a rate above the thicker oil that has already opened the relief valve.
Gary, I saw your gauge set up. Where are you able to tap into the two pressures you are seeking? I think one before and one after the filter?
[ August 21, 2006, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: another Todd ]
Keithwell, "same psi with thinner oil mean its flowing more oil?" errr maybe. Pump is pumping same amount at same rpm, the only way you could have more flow to the engine with same rpm is if the relief was open with the thicker oil and dumping pressure (and reducing flow). It may be open and dumping with the thinner oil too, but probably dumping less, therefore, yes more flow to the engine. IMO, With thicker oil, you will flow the same as with thinner oil up until the point that the relief valve opens at max psi and starts dumping. At that rpm a thinner oil would have less pressure, and with further increased rpm will flow at a rate above the thicker oil that has already opened the relief valve.
Gary, I saw your gauge set up. Where are you able to tap into the two pressures you are seeking? I think one before and one after the filter?
[ August 21, 2006, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: another Todd ]
That is the distinct probability..
But overlooked or poo-poo'd by most of those in the thread..
Has to be the filters fault or the design fault..don'tcha know..
However, Champ has the testing data that shows the average collapse of the E-core. As do the other filter companies who have tested it for themselves. Including AC Filter. And it tests out higher than the standard metal center tube..
I've just changed a thought. If we figure out the square inches the media is (it was not torn according to Red Bowtie), we could figure out how much force was put on the core, or at least pretty close.
So with so little support for the media, why don't more filters have problems with media deformation in the e-cores? Is the support really not needed at only 8-15 psid?
So with so little support for the media, why don't more filters have problems with media deformation in the e-cores? Is the support really not needed at only 8-15 psid?
Gary says: HOWEVER [Smile] ONCE the relief is OPEN you are NO LONGER IN A FLOW DICTATED CIRCUIT. It's no longer 2gpm in ..2 gpm out. It's the pressure of 4gpm with the flow of 2gpm(or whatever). You're in a pressure dictated circuit.
Todd says: WRONG. It is not the pressure of 4 gpm with the flow of 2gpm, the pressure doesn't change from the 82psi where the relief valve opened. The pump is pumping 4 gpm, only 2 gpm is going out the relief. If the engine suddenly developed a need for 3 gpm it would instantly get it because the flow is there, the relief valve would now only be dumping 1 gpm. It is only relieving because at that time the engine can't use it all. I think a more accurate statement would be "you are still in a flow dictated circuit which is pressure governed"
If your relief valve is open, and you stick a screwdriver through your oil filter to create a leak, the increased flow (engine use + leak) (which reduces pressure)will cause the relief valve to close until pressure (flow created) is restored to reopen the relief valve. The pressure reduction was caused by increased flow (flow dictated), the pressure reduction causes the relief valve to close (fully or partially, depending on amount of increased flow/reduced pressure)to immediatly increase flow to meet the need, up to the pumps gpm output capacity for that rpm. FLOW DICTATED--YES. Pressure does not dictate flow, FLOW CREATES AND DICTATES PRESSURE.
Todd says: WRONG. It is not the pressure of 4 gpm with the flow of 2gpm, the pressure doesn't change from the 82psi where the relief valve opened. The pump is pumping 4 gpm, only 2 gpm is going out the relief. If the engine suddenly developed a need for 3 gpm it would instantly get it because the flow is there, the relief valve would now only be dumping 1 gpm. It is only relieving because at that time the engine can't use it all. I think a more accurate statement would be "you are still in a flow dictated circuit which is pressure governed"
If your relief valve is open, and you stick a screwdriver through your oil filter to create a leak, the increased flow (engine use + leak) (which reduces pressure)will cause the relief valve to close until pressure (flow created) is restored to reopen the relief valve. The pressure reduction was caused by increased flow (flow dictated), the pressure reduction causes the relief valve to close (fully or partially, depending on amount of increased flow/reduced pressure)to immediatly increase flow to meet the need, up to the pumps gpm output capacity for that rpm. FLOW DICTATED--YES. Pressure does not dictate flow, FLOW CREATES AND DICTATES PRESSURE.
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WRONG. It is not the pressure of 4 gpm with the flow of 2gpm, the pressure doesn't change from the 82psi where the relief valve opened.
Gary says right. The pressure downstream of the filter changes. Semantics again. You need to get used to reading differentials in either modality. An elevation is just a drop looked at from the other end.
You cannot have a substantial amount of shunted flow without having it evidenced in altered pressure differentials.
note the (whatever) ..it means broaden your view
Gary says right. The pressure downstream of the filter changes. Semantics again. You need to get used to reading differentials in either modality. An elevation is just a drop looked at from the other end.
You cannot have a substantial amount of shunted flow without having it evidenced in altered pressure differentials.
note the (whatever) ..it means broaden your view
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Here's one of my higher differential events. Note the upper pressure. That was the most I could get in this cold start situation. That is, my 82 typical starting pressure had "moved back" further toward the pump and my lines became part of the restriction.
Now as things started to flow better, it was the LOWER needle that climbed up ...at first, coverging with ..and then "pushing" the higher gauge toward the typical 82 psi with virtually no PSID.
The entire event transitioned rather quickly (IIRC, less then a minute)
Now as things started to flow better, it was the LOWER needle that climbed up ...at first, coverging with ..and then "pushing" the higher gauge toward the typical 82 psi with virtually no PSID.
The entire event transitioned rather quickly (IIRC, less then a minute)
I agree with above gauge interpretations. Do you understand why the lower needle climbed up first? Because like I said before, flow starts at the pump, pressure starts at the restriction (or highest restriction) and builds backwards in relationship to flow. Your statement that your lines became part of the restriction is correct. But as more oil flowed, your engine became the "higher" restriction and pressure built backwards from there.
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Yes, the engine was always the higher restriction. It's dropping, in this situation, 68lbs ..while the filter is only 7 PSID. Note that the reduction in flow can only occur when there is pump relief action. If there was no relief action ..the engine would have been higher in PSI across it. As the relief closed ..the engine began to recieve more flow ...realized in crease backpressure and "met" the supplied pressure ..they both then returned to the normalized 2PSID (or less) relationship when the relief closed.
After just one minute of operation, how heavy do you think 20w-50 (or 15w-40) oil still is in any engine?? From a subfreezing state ..even if the entire sump volume cycled through the pump, "spinning its tires, so to speak", how much elevation in temp could occur. Let's just throw 50F out there (highly unlikely in one minute) ..yet we go from a relief setting to a non relief setting in that time. We're still in the 125+ in CST ..WAY MORE ...yet there is virtually NO PSID. How can this be??? (note Todd, the focus of this offering is to point out that the filter is a non-factor in a non-relief situation. If it was ..surely if you're at some unholy CST ..it would be off the scale. It's not ..as long as you're not in relief. Open relief?? BIG DIFFERENCE.
Keep in mind, Todd, that assuming that you've got a decent filter, that it is somewhat full. That is, the media isn't a barrier to an empty chamber. The oil flow is slamming against an equally as heavy and stationary mass on the other side of it (think kenetic energy transmission). That being said, surely in some situation ..particularly if there is no ADBV involved and the entire static column of oil is evacuated ...then you are probably going to see the bypass valve mechanism (in either the filter or the block) open. I can only state that this never occured in my usage over 1000's of miles of starts (cold, hot, light and heavy).
[ August 23, 2006, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
After just one minute of operation, how heavy do you think 20w-50 (or 15w-40) oil still is in any engine?? From a subfreezing state ..even if the entire sump volume cycled through the pump, "spinning its tires, so to speak", how much elevation in temp could occur. Let's just throw 50F out there (highly unlikely in one minute) ..yet we go from a relief setting to a non relief setting in that time. We're still in the 125+ in CST ..WAY MORE ...yet there is virtually NO PSID. How can this be??? (note Todd, the focus of this offering is to point out that the filter is a non-factor in a non-relief situation. If it was ..surely if you're at some unholy CST ..it would be off the scale. It's not ..as long as you're not in relief. Open relief?? BIG DIFFERENCE.
Keep in mind, Todd, that assuming that you've got a decent filter, that it is somewhat full. That is, the media isn't a barrier to an empty chamber. The oil flow is slamming against an equally as heavy and stationary mass on the other side of it (think kenetic energy transmission). That being said, surely in some situation ..particularly if there is no ADBV involved and the entire static column of oil is evacuated ...then you are probably going to see the bypass valve mechanism (in either the filter or the block) open. I can only state that this never occured in my usage over 1000's of miles of starts (cold, hot, light and heavy).
[ August 23, 2006, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
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No psid because the engine galleys, bearings, etc. filled with oil and pressure started building BACKWARDS AS IT ALWAYS DOES!
Show me where I haven't said that ..or confimed it. Caps don't make me any less aware of this. Your point?? Come on, Todd, please attempt to retain something that we've discussed many times. You're making it look like this is an education to me when I've said this many times (or agreed with you).
Reread and remember what has been said.
At that point the engine became more restrictive than the filter. The engine is always more restrictive then the filter. Try this ..pump a gallon of oil of any visc into a filter with a zero return line. What's you max PSID?? Do it with an engine. Which one do you think is going to produce the most back pressure??
You've got to have a fundamental understanding of how restrictions/resistance is expressed in a any circuit. The highest resistance/restrication has the highest pressure difference from atmospheric.
If you had two equivalent restrictions in line (equal to two engines) the differential between them would be 50:50. That is, in my situation there would be a perfect 82:41 relationship ..and anywhere down the line. They would divide the applied pressure.
It's the same as your 3rd grade science class working with the dry cell battery and bell wire. Two bulbs in series ..the current is cut/choke by the accumulated resistance and they both dissapate the voltage equally. Take a meter across them ..and each bulb will see the same voltage (assuming they're the same rating). If it's a 3v supply ..you'll see 1.5V across one bulb ..and 1.5V across the other.
Run them in parallel, however, and you'll have 3v across BOTH bulbs. In series ..the pressure is divide in proportion to resistance. In parallel the CURRENT/FLOW is divided by resistance.
No, Todd, the engine is a virtual block to flow compared to a filter in a series circuit.
[ August 23, 2006, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
Show me where I haven't said that ..or confimed it. Caps don't make me any less aware of this. Your point?? Come on, Todd, please attempt to retain something that we've discussed many times. You're making it look like this is an education to me when I've said this many times (or agreed with you).
At that point the engine became more restrictive than the filter. The engine is always more restrictive then the filter. Try this ..pump a gallon of oil of any visc into a filter with a zero return line. What's you max PSID?? Do it with an engine. Which one do you think is going to produce the most back pressure??
You've got to have a fundamental understanding of how restrictions/resistance is expressed in a any circuit. The highest resistance/restrication has the highest pressure difference from atmospheric.
If you had two equivalent restrictions in line (equal to two engines) the differential between them would be 50:50. That is, in my situation there would be a perfect 82:41 relationship ..and anywhere down the line. They would divide the applied pressure.
It's the same as your 3rd grade science class working with the dry cell battery and bell wire. Two bulbs in series ..the current is cut/choke by the accumulated resistance and they both dissapate the voltage equally. Take a meter across them ..and each bulb will see the same voltage (assuming they're the same rating). If it's a 3v supply ..you'll see 1.5V across one bulb ..and 1.5V across the other.
Run them in parallel, however, and you'll have 3v across BOTH bulbs. In series ..the pressure is divide in proportion to resistance. In parallel the CURRENT/FLOW is divided by resistance.
No, Todd, the engine is a virtual block to flow compared to a filter in a series circuit.
[ August 23, 2006, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]
Gary I agree with your electrical example but not sure how it relates, but forget it, read below.
Gary, PLEASE explain this. If the engine (which would be the circuit on the outlet side of the filter) is always more restrictive than the filter media, as you state---
1.How is it possible for that engine side of the filter to have a lower pressure than the inlet (pump) side of the filter?
As your gauge setup showed, engine side pressure was lower than pump side pressure. This is impossible if the engine was a higher restriction.
2. In your scenario, why is a filter bypasss necessary if the filter is always less restricted?
Gary, PLEASE explain this. If the engine (which would be the circuit on the outlet side of the filter) is always more restrictive than the filter media, as you state---
1.How is it possible for that engine side of the filter to have a lower pressure than the inlet (pump) side of the filter?
As your gauge setup showed, engine side pressure was lower than pump side pressure. This is impossible if the engine was a higher restriction.
2. In your scenario, why is a filter bypasss necessary if the filter is always less restricted?
Like you said--
"You've got to have a fundamental understanding of how restrictions/resistance is expressed in a any circuit. The highest resistance/restrication has the highest pressure difference from atmospheric."
EXACTLY!
"You've got to have a fundamental understanding of how restrictions/resistance is expressed in a any circuit. The highest resistance/restrication has the highest pressure difference from atmospheric."
EXACTLY!
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Like I said, you need to have a fundamental understanding of circuits (either fluid or electrical) to integrate what I'm saying.
If you've got 100psi applied ..the total of any of the resistive elements downstream of that pressure will always equal ZERO. That is, between the two of them ..they will dissapate that pressure 100% ..the flow will be variable depending on that total resistance that they add up to. In our situation ..we don't (full time) have a fixed applied pressure ..we have a mandated current/flow through them. They STILL divide the produced pressure between them in proportion to what they represent to the flow.
So ..in my case (my engine that we frequently reference here) ..the resistance of the engine produces 80 psi of pressure ..the filter adds only 2psi more ( can be viewed as 2PSID).
See?
If you could manifold all the oil outlets on the engine and route it through a filter ..the roles would be reversed. You would have 2psi on the bottom gauge and 82 psi across the engine ..for 80PSID. Might I suggest this before we continue?? It's essential for any progress to be attained.
If you've got 100psi applied ..the total of any of the resistive elements downstream of that pressure will always equal ZERO. That is, between the two of them ..they will dissapate that pressure 100% ..the flow will be variable depending on that total resistance that they add up to. In our situation ..we don't (full time) have a fixed applied pressure ..we have a mandated current/flow through them. They STILL divide the produced pressure between them in proportion to what they represent to the flow.
So ..in my case (my engine that we frequently reference here) ..the resistance of the engine produces 80 psi of pressure ..the filter adds only 2psi more ( can be viewed as 2PSID).
See?
If you could manifold all the oil outlets on the engine and route it through a filter ..the roles would be reversed. You would have 2psi on the bottom gauge and 82 psi across the engine ..for 80PSID. Might I suggest this before we continue?? It's essential for any progress to be attained.
"So ..in my case (my engine that we frequently reference here) ..the resistance of the engine produces 80 psi of pressure ..the filter adds only 2psi more ( can be viewed as 2PSID)."
OK, I'll buy that if you would say this is the same thing. If the engine produced 80psi of (back) pressure, and the filter 2 psi more, than the filter is actually producing 82 psi of back pressure, and providing only enough flow to produce 80 psi back pressure in the engine, hence 2psid.
I am having trouble adding a lessor restriction to a higher one, cause I am thinking the system shouldn't see it!
Hopefully we both just said the same thing, just worded differently, I am not sure!!
OK, I'll buy that if you would say this is the same thing. If the engine produced 80psi of (back) pressure, and the filter 2 psi more, than the filter is actually producing 82 psi of back pressure, and providing only enough flow to produce 80 psi back pressure in the engine, hence 2psid.
I am having trouble adding a lessor restriction to a higher one, cause I am thinking the system shouldn't see it!
Hopefully we both just said the same thing, just worded differently, I am not sure!!
Now, about the pump relief and psid....
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I am having trouble adding a lessor restriction to a higher one, cause I am thinking the system shouldn't see it!
I think that I've been saying that, if you recall. I've said when we're not in relief the filter is barely seen by anything. It adds very minor resistance. Hence my endlessly redundant assertions that there is no such thing as a restrictive or freeflowing filter when you're not in relief situation. (sound familiar??
) Now the filter is a choke point ..but it's merely a point where the flow changes velocity. Bumper to bumper traffic ...4 lanes to 2 lanes back to 4 lanes...always bumper to bumper (the engine's backpressure) ..the the rate at which any individual car changes. Slower on the 4 lane part of it ..faster at the 2 lane part of it ..but the mean velocity is unchanged ..only the intermediate velocity is altered. The cars per minute stays the same ...half the cars moving twice as fast ..twice the cars moving half as fast.
This must occur in a non relief situation.
Once the relief is open ..then you don't have a mandated velocity change. The flow can in deed be reduced ..you can have less "backpressure" after the filter (and do when in relief). The choke from the 4 lane to a 2 lane can mean less traffic ..the traffic after it can be less dense (less backpressure) ..because now some of the cars on the 4 lane are leaving by a whole new door.
I think that I've been saying that, if you recall. I've said when we're not in relief the filter is barely seen by anything. It adds very minor resistance. Hence my endlessly redundant assertions that there is no such thing as a restrictive or freeflowing filter when you're not in relief situation. (sound familiar??
This must occur in a non relief situation.
Once the relief is open ..then you don't have a mandated velocity change. The flow can in deed be reduced ..you can have less "backpressure" after the filter (and do when in relief). The choke from the 4 lane to a 2 lane can mean less traffic ..the traffic after it can be less dense (less backpressure) ..because now some of the cars on the 4 lane are leaving by a whole new door.
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..and here's more. Since we're sending our excess cars and putting them back in line (relief) if we get too backedup at the entrance to the two lane ..we open a "bypass" and just bridge the 4 lane to 4 lane. We only allow so many cars to recycle themselves by sending them back to the onramp. Some highways might limit it to a 8 car backlog ..11 ...heck, some allow 30 seeking reservations for transport to the promised land.
It all depends on the quality of service they receive. Most will get the full treatment ..but some are just going to be shuttled on via the express lane. No wash room ..no refreshments served. No time to tidy up.
Your car analogy is wack, I can't comprehend the comparison.
You did not answer my question. Are we saying the same thing with different words or do you disagree with my take on it?
You did not answer my question. Are we saying the same thing with different words or do you disagree with my take on it?
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The filter is just like transitioning from a 4:2:4 lane though in velocity change. That's all that can occur when not in relief.
This question?
No ..or not quite. The pressure at the point above the filter is 82 psi. The measurement below is 80. The filter adds 2 psi. If that means the same thing to you ..then fine ..but it's not truly how it is. The filter by itself ..zero "back pressure" would see 100% of the pressure developed over its resistance (it would be hard to develop much pressure ..but 100% of it would be shown over the filter
So you can't say "the filter produces 82 pounds of back pressure". It's the filter and the engine produces 82 pounds of back pressure. You can say that you "see" (sense, have indication of) 82 lbs of back pressure upstream from the filter.
It's all dependant upon your frame of reference. If you're isolating the filter ...you only see what the filter adds in resistance. If you take the total system measurement ..it's going to include it all (engine, filter, and anything else you may have in there).
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Look at this reading. It isolates the filter. This gauge only measures differential. It's reading about 8 PSID. If my total system pressure was 82 psi ...there would be an engine generated pressure of 74 psi.
8 lbs of pressure is expended overcoming the resistance of the filter. The rest is consumed or generated by the engine. Together they make up total system pressure.
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