Five Euro Car Myths?

Ws6

Messages
3,484
Location
South Central US
Originally Posted by MCompact
Originally Posted by Ws6
Also my BMW owning friends. Always in the shop and never cheap.
My Club Sport, X1, and 2er have each been averaging one trip to the dealer per year since I've purchased them- the visit is for the annual oil change as well as anything the SI(3er) or CBS(X1 and 2er) call for. Thank heavens I can file a Chapter 7 every eight years... crackmeup
I meant for those who actually drive their vehicles and not just look at them, lol! Of course a BMW can reliably displace air in a garage.
 
Messages
11,279
Location
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by supton
Hmm, I'm starting to think I'm derailing this thread, looking for TCO and hard numbers when the thread is more about addressing myths. I'm looking at some very specific parameters that few car shoppers would be; my own car shopping should probably be off on its own thread. Apologies.
I've yet to find the myth dispelled. Every euro vehicle I've looked at was high maintenance and broke a lot more than my Japanese stuff. VW dealer told me all the things that would break, and when, on the A3 I looked at once. Oof. Also my BMW owning friends. Always in the shop and never cheap. Except one, and it was an older model. Very droll. Also very reliable. Sure, Japan puts out junk now and then, across all lines, and the Euro brands put out good stuff same way, but averaged? Japan makes great driver centric vehicles with quality parts at any price strata.
Yes, it is called Supra. Oh wait...
 
Messages
11,279
Location
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
If BMWs are better than Toylettas from a reliability, resale and especially TCO standpoint, then that explains why BMW outsells Toyletta by so much. Right? Myth. We are all welcome to buy whatever floats your boat. All good.
VW does. It is biggest automaker. So, I guess we found winner?
 
Messages
11,279
Location
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by MCompact
Originally Posted by Ws6
Also my BMW owning friends. Always in the shop and never cheap.
My Club Sport, X1, and 2er have each been averaging one trip to the dealer per year since I've purchased them- the visit is for the annual oil change as well as anything the SI(3er) or CBS(X1 and 2er) call for. Thank heavens I can file a Chapter 7 every eight years... crackmeup
I meant for those who actually drive their vehicles and not just look at them, lol! Of course a BMW can reliably displace air in a garage.
Man, we are talking real cars, not RAV4, CX5 etc.
 

Ws6

Messages
3,484
Location
South Central US
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by supton
Hmm, I'm starting to think I'm derailing this thread, looking for TCO and hard numbers when the thread is more about addressing myths. I'm looking at some very specific parameters that few car shoppers would be; my own car shopping should probably be off on its own thread. Apologies.
I've yet to find the myth dispelled. Every euro vehicle I've looked at was high maintenance and broke a lot more than my Japanese stuff. VW dealer told me all the things that would break, and when, on the A3 I looked at once. Oof. Also my BMW owning friends. Always in the shop and never cheap. Except one, and it was an older model. Very droll. Also very reliable. Sure, Japan puts out junk now and then, across all lines, and the Euro brands put out good stuff same way, but averaged? Japan makes great driver centric vehicles with quality parts at any price strata.
Yes, it is called Supra. Oh wait...
Miata GT-R CX-5 These are all class leading vehicles in various segments (SUV, cheap sports car, expensive sports car) , at various price strata. I left out a lot, as well as historical offerings, of course. You point out the Supra (1 generation only), as a collab with BMW to discredit this...yes BMW does make very engaging vehicles, as well. Okay?
 
Messages
11,279
Location
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by supton
Hmm, I'm starting to think I'm derailing this thread, looking for TCO and hard numbers when the thread is more about addressing myths. I'm looking at some very specific parameters that few car shoppers would be; my own car shopping should probably be off on its own thread. Apologies.
I've yet to find the myth dispelled. Every euro vehicle I've looked at was high maintenance and broke a lot more than my Japanese stuff. VW dealer told me all the things that would break, and when, on the A3 I looked at once. Oof. Also my BMW owning friends. Always in the shop and never cheap. Except one, and it was an older model. Very droll. Also very reliable. Sure, Japan puts out junk now and then, across all lines, and the Euro brands put out good stuff same way, but averaged? Japan makes great driver centric vehicles with quality parts at any price strata.
Yes, it is called Supra. Oh wait...
Miata GT-R CX-5 These are all class leading vehicles in various segments (SUV, cheap sports car, expensive sports car) , at various price strata. I left out a lot, as well as historical offerings, of course. You point out the Supra (1 generation only), as a collab with BMW to discredit this...yes BMW does make very engaging vehicles, as well. Okay?
Miata, GT-R, CX5 LOL And yes, among RAV4, CR-V, Hyundai Tucson, CX5 drives best, no doubt.
 

Ws6

Messages
3,484
Location
South Central US
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by MCompact
Originally Posted by Ws6
Also my BMW owning friends. Always in the shop and never cheap.
My Club Sport, X1, and 2er have each been averaging one trip to the dealer per year since I've purchased them- the visit is for the annual oil change as well as anything the SI(3er) or CBS(X1 and 2er) call for. Thank heavens I can file a Chapter 7 every eight years... crackmeup
I meant for those who actually drive their vehicles and not just look at them, lol! Of course a BMW can reliably displace air in a garage.
Man, we are talking real cars, not RAV4, CX5 etc.
let me know when BMW can compete with a GT-R with anything in their stable. Also, CX5 > X1 [Linked Image]
 
Last edited:
Messages
11,279
Location
Colorado Springs
[/quote]Let me know when BMW can compete with a GT-R with anything in their stable. [/quote] Not sure what GT-R has with RAV4 and CX5? But, you might ask friends about BMW, or your neighbor with AMG. I see his rent is still free.
 
Messages
6,201
Location
KY
Originally Posted by Ws6
I meant for those who actually drive their vehicles and not just look at them, lol! Of course a BMW can reliably displace air in a garage.
Well, my Club Sport was my HPDE instructor car from 1996 to 2012, and it was almost always the car I drove on vacation trips- most often to Florida, Gulf Shores, or Kiawah. The M235i is my current track toy. That said, I do rotate through all four of my cars for my work commute every week. It's a tough job, but somebody has to do it.
 

Ws6

Messages
3,484
Location
South Central US
Originally Posted by edyvw
[/quote] Not sure what GT-R has with RAV4 and CX5? But, you might ask friends about BMW, or your neighbor with AMG. I see his rent is still free.
Nothing. If you read the post, you'd have understood that we were talking about various segments of the market, and not just "ONE TO RULE THEM ALL!" or some nonsense. I listed examples from each, from Japan, that absolutely CRUSH it in driving dynamics for their SEGMENT. Now...what out of Germany is killing a GT-R other than a Porsche (debatable, and for a lot more money, and with a lot more maintenance to boot...)?
 
Messages
11,279
Location
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted by supton
Hmm, I'm starting to think I'm derailing this thread, looking for TCO and hard numbers when the thread is more about addressing myths. I'm looking at some very specific parameters that few car shoppers would be; my own car shopping should probably be off on its own thread. Apologies.
I still do not get how you get exact parameters? That Highlander with [problematic water pump would turn out expensive, but it is actually very reliable overall. Failed solenoids on VVT-I on 2GR-FE will cost more than anything on BMW N55 engine for example. On BMW N55 you know you will have to change valve cover for sure at 100k, on 2GR-FE solenoids might or might not fail so if they do not, great, if they do? oh boy. Then choice of tires. I have RT43 tire, as a spare in BMW. I personally believe in buying best possible tires on wheels. So I will spend more money regardless of vehicle I own. I am not sure TCO is exact science.
 
Messages
11,279
Location
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by edyvw
Not sure what GT-R has with RAV4 and CX5? But, you might ask friends about BMW, or your neighbor with AMG. I see his rent is still free.
Quote
Nothing. If you read the post, you'd have understood that we were talking about various segments of the market, and not just "ONE TO RULE THEM ALL!" or some nonsense. I listed examples from each, from Japan, that absolutely CRUSH it in driving dynamics for their SEGMENT. Now...what out of Germany is killing a GT-R other than a Porsche (debatable, and for a lot more money, and with a lot more maintenance to boot...)?
Porsche is not debatable, and what is maintenance cost of Porsche compared to GT-R. As for BMW, BMW from time to time makes car that show they can make it best in segment and moves on. Actually, they do not have in GT-R category anything available. On other hand you can buy 4 door BMW that will do track day and take kids into daycare, Nissan?
 
Last edited:

Ws6

Messages
3,484
Location
South Central US
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by supton
Hmm, I'm starting to think I'm derailing this thread, looking for TCO and hard numbers when the thread is more about addressing myths. I'm looking at some very specific parameters that few car shoppers would be; my own car shopping should probably be off on its own thread. Apologies.
I still do not get how you get exact parameters? That Highlander with [problematic water pump would turn out expensive, but it is actually very reliable overall. Failed solenoids on VVT-I on 2GR-FE will cost more than anything on BMW N55 engine for example. On BMW N55 you know you will have to change valve cover for sure at 100k, on 2GR-FE solenoids might or might not fail so if they do not, great, if they do? oh boy. Then choice of tires. I have RT43 tire, as a spare in BMW. I personally believe in buying best possible tires on wheels. So I will spend more money regardless of vehicle I own. I am not sure TCO is exact science.
Personal experience is that TCO is model-based, across a large sample size. Individual experiences run the gamut. My take is that I look at the maintenance costs vs. return in fun factor, and then buy a big warranty and don't worry about it. Since I drive a fair bit (30-40K miles/year), I also factor in fuel cost and availability (if you have a 91+ octane only vehicle, it's not going to work so well in some places on some trips). TCO is just kindof a one size fits none, IMO, but it does "speak to the brand" and "overall expectation", IMO.
 

Ws6

Messages
3,484
Location
South Central US
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by edyvw
Not sure what GT-R has with RAV4 and CX5? But, you might ask friends about BMW, or your neighbor with AMG. I see his rent is still free.
Quote
Nothing. If you read the post, you'd have understood that we were talking about various segments of the market, and not just "ONE TO RULE THEM ALL!" or some nonsense. I listed examples from each, from Japan, that absolutely CRUSH it in driving dynamics for their SEGMENT. Now...what out of Germany is killing a GT-R other than a Porsche (debatable, and for a lot more money, and with a lot more maintenance to boot...)?
Porsche is not debatable, and what is maintenance cost of Porsche compared to GT-R. As for BMW, BMW from time to time makes car that show they can make it best in segment and moves on. Actually, they do not have in GT-R category anything available. On other hand you can buy 4 door BMW that will do track day and take kids into daycare, Nissan?
Looked it up. Actually impressed/surprised, as the Porsche maintenance is much lower than I expected, and lower than GT-R. I am guessing because of the AWD/DCT setup on the GT-R vs the manual in the Porsches. I could not find a PDK equipped TCO calculation, which would be a better comparo, but still! Not shabby! Also, nah, Nissan does not have that.
 
Messages
11,279
Location
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by supton
Hmm, I'm starting to think I'm derailing this thread, looking for TCO and hard numbers when the thread is more about addressing myths. I'm looking at some very specific parameters that few car shoppers would be; my own car shopping should probably be off on its own thread. Apologies.
I still do not get how you get exact parameters? That Highlander with [problematic water pump would turn out expensive, but it is actually very reliable overall. Failed solenoids on VVT-I on 2GR-FE will cost more than anything on BMW N55 engine for example. On BMW N55 you know you will have to change valve cover for sure at 100k, on 2GR-FE solenoids might or might not fail so if they do not, great, if they do? oh boy. Then choice of tires. I have RT43 tire, as a spare in BMW. I personally believe in buying best possible tires on wheels. So I will spend more money regardless of vehicle I own. I am not sure TCO is exact science.
Personal experience is that TCO is model-based, across a large sample size. Individual experiences run the gamut. My take is that I look at the maintenance costs vs. return in fun factor, and then buy a big warranty and don't worry about it. Since I drive a fair bit (30-40K miles/year), I also factor in fuel cost and availability (if you have a 91+ octane only vehicle, it's not going to work so well in some places on some trips). TCO is just kindof a one size fits none, IMO, but it does "speak to the brand" and "overall expectation", IMO.
I have driven through deserts of Utah, Montana, mountains, New England etc. and yet to see that premium is not available. I managed to fuel up premium near Death Valley, Montana, South and North Dakota in gas stations where mechanical counter still counts gallons. I am really not sure that is a factor. I would say probably issue will be with sulfur levels in some areas.
 
Messages
11,279
Location
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by edyvw
Not sure what GT-R has with RAV4 and CX5? But, you might ask friends about BMW, or your neighbor with AMG. I see his rent is still free.
Quote
Nothing. If you read the post, you'd have understood that we were talking about various segments of the market, and not just "ONE TO RULE THEM ALL!" or some nonsense. I listed examples from each, from Japan, that absolutely CRUSH it in driving dynamics for their SEGMENT. Now...what out of Germany is killing a GT-R other than a Porsche (debatable, and for a lot more money, and with a lot more maintenance to boot...)?
Porsche is not debatable, and what is maintenance cost of Porsche compared to GT-R. As for BMW, BMW from time to time makes car that show they can make it best in segment and moves on. Actually, they do not have in GT-R category anything available. On other hand you can buy 4 door BMW that will do track day and take kids into daycare, Nissan?
Looked it up. Actually impressed/surprised, as the Porsche maintenance is much lower than I expected, and lower than GT-R. I am guessing because of the AWD/DCT setup on the GT-R vs the manual in the Porsches. I could not find a PDK equipped TCO calculation, which would be a better comparo, but still! Not shabby! Also, nah, Nissan does not have that.
Porsche were always considered every day sports car. That is the thing that separates Porsche from likes of Ferrari and Lamborghini. PDK is not going to be any more expensive except probably 40-60k fluid change. But PDK is best dual clutch available on market period, so reliability is there.
 
Messages
6,201
Location
KY
I'll admit that I <span style="font-style: italic">have</span> considered a Stinger GT2(RWD only); it's not quite as quick as I'd like, but with the usual discounts it's ridiculously inexpensive for what you get.
 
Messages
641
Location
EU
Interesting to see Porsche's mythos in the US that lifted. Lexus certainly would be in problems with Porsche's weaknesses. Porsche didn't have to wrap an off roader, not even its SUV around its engines to have them suffering. Brand busting: https://www.autobild.de/artikel/porsche-panamera-gebrauchtwagen-test-13137587.html Granted, VAGPorsche's DSG may be worse than PDK while Alfa's Giulia and Stelvio actually compare favorably contrary to lots of old mythology. But reviewing myths here became making and piling up claims hardly suitable for the city.
 
Last edited:
Messages
6,201
Location
KY
As Toyotas go, I like the 86, but I already have one light and tossable momentum car in my stable. The Supra is really nice, but I question how many techs Toyota will train to work on them. I have a couple of friends with GT-Rs who have brought them in for service only to be told "Our GT-R tech is out today." The Supra's drivetrain and telematics are from BMW and it's not a high volume car(0% APR, anyone)- I wonder how many Toyota service departments will want to deal with one. The rumored Toyota hot hatch sounds interesting, but based on my conversations with a couple of friends at Road & Track I'd probably go with a Veloster N, especially since it indirectly shares some BMW M DNA.
 
Top