Fit Maint Minder: 70% oil life at 5k miles?

[RF Overlord]

I mostly agree w/JOD on this one, although demarpaint makes a couple of good points as well.

It seems to boil down to this: blindly following an OLM can have drawbacks, as the Pilot owner in the referenced link found out, as did GM's DI-engine owners, but once it's been established that the OLM in a given vehicle is valid, I see no reason NOT to use it.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

I call it insurance. Poor engine design, or engines that are hard on oil for various reasons that can't be fixed. Engines that are sludge prone due to poor design can't be fixed either, and if its a first generation newly designed engine then what? An early OCI might help. People buying first generation engines, have no clue how they are going to perform. They'd be betting pretty heavy on the OLM wouldn't they? Do you think the automakers truly test newly designed engines enough to know the quirks and pitfalls? Honda didn't in the case of the Pilot I referenced, as did many other auto makers over the years. In the end its the consumer who ends up on the short end of the stick. Sorry another $200-$300 over the life of the vehicle is cheap insurance for me.


Thing is, I agree with much of what you say here. I just don't think it's relevant to the OP, since it's a proven engine design and the OLM has demonstrated its effectiveness in the Fit. And I don't think any of the (valid) points you make above have any relevance to his situation, nor are they good reasons to always distrust OLM's. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Pajamarama]

Thanks for everyone's input though I don't think we reached much of a consensus.

For now, I think I will change it earlier than the OLM suggests. At 7500 miles on the oil, I plan to do an oil change using Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5w-20 and a Purolator Classic filter.

I have been planning to start UOA on both my vehicles anyway so I will use this opportunity to grab a sample and send it off to Blackstone to see what kind of shape the engine's in (65k miles).

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: demarpaint

I call it insurance. Poor engine design, or engines that are hard on oil for various reasons that can't be fixed. Engines that are sludge prone due to poor design can't be fixed either, and if its a first generation newly designed engine then what? An early OCI might help. People buying first generation engines, have no clue how they are going to perform. They'd be betting pretty heavy on the OLM wouldn't they? Do you think the automakers truly test newly designed engines enough to know the quirks and pitfalls? Honda didn't in the case of the Pilot I referenced, as did many other auto makers over the years. In the end its the consumer who ends up on the short end of the stick. Sorry another $200-$300 over the life of the vehicle is cheap insurance for me.


Thing is, I agree with much of what you say here. I just don't think it's relevant to the OP, since it's a proven engine design and the OLM has demonstrated its effectiveness in the Fit. And I don't think any of the (valid) points you make above have any relevance to his situation, nor are they good reasons to always distrust OLM's. That's all I'm saying.


Understood, again I look at it as insurance that's all. Wasteful to some valuable to others. I know one thing for sure, if I were in the market for a used car I'd walk right past the cars whose owner followed the OLM. Think about it, two cars identical in every aspect except for how they were serviced. One serviced with synthetic oil every 5K miles or 6 months, or the car that had 70% oil life remaining on his synthetic oil at 5,000 miles and he waited until it hit 10% before he changed it. I'd pass on that one, and most people would agree. Now if they both used dino oil, the decision would be even easier for me. It would be a bigger no thanks to the OLM maintained car.

 

[RF Overlord]

demarpaint, you seem to believe that any car that had the oil changed every 5,000 miles (for example) MUST be in better condition than one where the owner followed the OLM. All other factors being equal, I respectfully disagree.

The concept of insurance implies that it protects you against failure. With today's engines and oil, again all other factors being equal, I fail to see that having the oil changed earlier than it needs to be is actually protecting any better. Why else would major commercial and industrial users go by UOAs instead of fixed time or mileage? Isn't it to get maximum longevity from the equipment?

 

[LeakySeals]

Seems to be two sides of the fence here.

Those that see one reported problem with OLM and question all OLM's.

And the other side that discounts and shreds any questioning of an OLM with "Its a different engine, different oil, different driving style, doesn't count" or "didn't happen to me so it can't be true".

I'm straddling the fence trying to find an answer to a specific question. Model year 09 Honda OLM, is there an issue? I brought up the complaint about a 09 Pilot with engine damage possibly due to a OLM that ran the oil too long because there is a complaint about a 09 Fit OLM that seems too long also.

Rather than dispute whats different would like to talk about what they share. Is the OLM program on these 2 09's the same or not? Does each model in the same year have its own custom OLM or not? If its the same program there is a legitimate concern for the OLM in this year. If each model has its own OLM program, then we can isolate a problem to a model, or attribute to something else.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
demarpaint, you seem to believe that any car that had the oil changed every 5,000 miles (for example) MUST be in better condition than one where the owner followed the OLM. All other factors being equal, I respectfully disagree.

The concept of insurance implies that it protects you against failure. With today's engines and oil, again all other factors being equal, I fail to see that having the oil changed earlier than it needs to be is actually protecting any better. Why else would major commercial and industrial users go by UOAs instead of fixed time or mileage? Isn't it to get maximum longevity from the equipment?


I'm talking about the OLM and I gave an example. Part of what I said was this: Quote: "I'd ignore that OLM, settle on an OCI based on a UOA report." I'm not disputing getting data to back it up. I'd prefer to ignore it though.


What I also asked about was two cars, one following the OLM that shows 70% life remaining after 5K miles running it to 10% and dumping it. The other changed every 5K or 6 months, all things being equal which would you buy?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Seems to be two sides of the fence here.

Those that see one reported problem with OLM and question all OLM's.

And the other side that discounts and shreds any questioning of an OLM with "Its a different engine, different oil, different driving style, doesn't count" or "didn't happen to me so it can't be true".


I'm straddling the fence trying to find an answer to a specific question. Model year 09 Honda OLM, is there an issue? I brought up the complaint about a 09 Pilot with engine damage possibly due to a OLM that ran the oil too long because there is a complaint about a 09 Fit OLM that seems too long also.

Rather than dispute whats different would like to talk about what they share. Is the OLM program on these 2 09's the same or not? Does each model in the same year have its own custom OLM or not? If its the same program there is a legitimate concern for the OLM in this year. If each model has its own OLM program, then we can isolate a problem to a model, or attribute to something else.



Yes two sides, each has their reasons for defending their positions, good things can come from these kinds of discussions. Great line of questions Leaky, does anyone have a concrete answer, based on actual facts and not opinions of how these things are actually programmed? I have no clue......

 

[bigdawg74]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Think you should read this. A guy with a 09 Pilot that used his OLM and ended up with engine problems. Yeah, different engine. But same year Honda, so likely the same OLM programming.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2675186


The Pilot has a V6 engine with variable cylinder management. Fit has a 4 cylinder firing all the time. You are not even comparing apples to oranges....more like apples to pork chops, IMHO.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Seems to be two sides of the fence here.

Those that see one reported problem with OLM and question all OLM's.

And the other side that discounts and shreds any questioning of an OLM with "Its a different engine, different oil, different driving style, doesn't count" or "didn't happen to me so it can't be true".



I think you're misrepresenting my position a bit. I'm not saying it "can't be true" or that the OLM can't be off, nor am I claiming that they're perfect, but in this case we ARE talking about a different engine! The cases of OLM's being miscalibrated are pretty well-known (certain DI engines and the Honda VCM engines). Besides that, if you have a new engine design then I certainly understand being conservative until there's documentation out there or you do some UOA's yourself.

Regarding Dermapaint's hypothetical on the used car, the funny thing is that I'd rather the PO have done short OCI's--but my reason has nothing to do with the oil's suitability for use. I just wouldn't trust the PO to have checked the oil level, and more than anything I think that driving around without enough oil is the most damaging thing you can do to an engine. So, if you happen to have an engine that consumes some oil and you never check the oil, I can see problems developing over the course of an OLM cycle. But again, that's a hypothetical that doesn't apply here (hopefully!). If you're doing longer OCI's, then I'm assuming that one is checking the oil level regularly and topping off as necessary. If there's one argument against average owners doing longer OCI's, it's that one, IMO.

Oil quality is obviously an issue as well, but all of the SN-rated oils seem to hold up well, including conventional oils. I'm not sure if that's what was used in this case, but if so I'm not sure I'd be too concerned about "conventional vs. synthetic". All of the GF-5/SN-rated oils seem pretty robust.

 

[simple_gifts]

If I had an OLM, I'd follow it if only to annoy demarpaint.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
If I had an OLM, I'd follow it if only to annoy demarpaint.


LOL- It would take a lot more than that to annoy me. But you're welcome to try.

 

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: LeakySeals
Seems to be two sides of the fence here.

Those that see one reported problem with OLM and question all OLM's.

And the other side that discounts and shreds any questioning of an OLM with "Its a different engine, different oil, different driving style, doesn't count" or "didn't happen to me so it can't be true".


I think you're misrepresenting my position a bit. I'm not saying it "can't be true" or that the OLM can't be off, nor am I claiming that they're perfect, but in this case we ARE talking about a different engine! The cases of OLM's being miscalibrated are pretty well-known (certain DI engines and the Honda VCM engines). Besides that, if you have a new engine design then I certainly understand being conservative until there's documentation out there or you do some UOA's yourself.

Your inadvertently making me more concerned about the accuracy of OLM. if Honda (or other manufacturers) is using identical OLM programs for completely different engines, then the OLM's cant be trusted for accuracy on any engine, because its completely generic. May be too short for a civic, too long for a Pilot, etc.

Is my 08 3.8L V6 Pontiac Grand Prix OLM the same as a 08 6.0L V8 Chevy Suburban? If its "working good for me", should the Suburban owner assume he's fine?

If somebody could answer whether each model of a manufacturer has an independent OLM program that would put my concern to rest.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Understood, again I look at it as insurance that's all. Wasteful to some valuable to others. I know one thing for sure, if I were in the market for a used car I'd walk right past the cars whose owner followed the OLM.


Remember, it's not the fault of the OLM. It's the fault of who programmed it. It's no different than an overly optimistic OCI in a printed manual, and we've seen those before.

 

[fdcg27]

Entirely different engine.
The only similarity between these two vehicles is the badge on the hood.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Understood, again I look at it as insurance that's all. Wasteful to some valuable to others. I know one thing for sure, if I were in the market for a used car I'd walk right past the cars whose owner followed the OLM.


Remember, it's not the fault of the OLM. It's the fault of who programmed it. It's no different than an overly optimistic OCI in a printed manual, and we've seen those before.


Exactly, and who pays for the repair after the warranty if there is a problem due to an OLM that was overly optimistic? As far as owners manuals I also agree. I always followed a severe service interval, based on how my vehicles were driven. It seems the technology is pushing to eliminate the thinking process, I'd rather do my own thinking than have a computer program do it for me. Again opinions vary.

 

[johnsmellsalot]

Yes. Honda's Maintenance Minders display oil life based on accumulated engine revolutions and operating conditions.
Originally Posted By: Pajamarama
Our 09 Honda Fit last had its oil changed almost 5000 miles ago. It was done at the Honda dealer and they used the spec'd 5w-20. I assume it was synthetic but I do not know for sure.

I noticed that the Oil Life indicator on the Maintenance Minder says that there is still 70% oil life remaining. This seems awfully high. Does anyone know how Honda's car computers determine the remaining oil life? Would you advise I change it before it gets to the recommended 20% life remaining.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Exactly, and who pays for the repair after the warranty if there is a problem due to an OLM that was overly optimistic?


Absolutely. The manufacturer should, but even if they do, it's still a gargantuan hassle. One has to use some common sense, and even some UOAs if warranted. 3,000 miles was way to short of an OCI on propane fueled taxis with conventional back in the 1980s. As an opposing example, the 12,500 km OCI in my Audi's manual with only 4.5 litres of conventional in the sump was a bit too optimistic, in my view.

Even if I had an OLM, I'd still be paying close attention (as do many here) as to how many miles have actually passed, and considered that along with the lubricant (synthetic or conventional), sump size, and driving style. While I do "trust" the manufacturers' recommendations, if something seems far fetched or too good to be true, it probably is.

 

[Phishin]

I am just surprised that anyone would follow any OLM. But most people are lazy and mindless. And if anyone can let themselves off the hook for being responsible, accountable, and informed....they typically latch onto any flimsy reed they can wrap their feeble fingers around.

Where is common sense?

Why push oil to its absolute limit beyond when every day you can get FAR oil? Why push the limits of a $20 oil change when a new engine is $5k? Are people on here that cheap? I know many on here change oil brand/types based onwhatever is on sale. But come on....change your darn oil. Whats wrong with you people? You are maintaining your car....not a fleet.

 

[sciphi]

Our Fit will go 11-12k miles per OCI according to the Maintenance Minder. We've done UOA's, and it's fine for that mileage on full synthetic 0w-20.

I'd stick with the OLM, or 10k miles, whichever goes off first. The L15A7 is pretty easy on oil.