First mass-produced domestic DOHC 24V V-6?
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Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: sasha
Originally Posted By: Nick R
Wait, the 3.4L in the chevy luminas was a DOHC engine? I thought it was the 3.4L OHV that was in the Venture/etc
the DOHC was used in the
1991–1994 Chevrolet Lumina Z34 and the Euro 3.4 sedan
1991–1996 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
1991–1996 Pontiac Grand Prix
1995–1997 Chevrolet Monte Carlo Z34
1995–1997 Chevrolet Lumina LS
1997 Chevrolet Lumina LTZ
I can't believe it was availiable in the LS.
One would have to special order it in that model. I have never in my life seen a plastic 15" wheel covered, cloth bench front seat, column shift Lumina LS with a DOHC 3.4.
That would be some sleeper. Hey! you in the Maxima...you wanna' run 'em?
Even with all those models, it was still not a widely produced engine. The Z34 models are the only Luminas that only came with the DOHC 3.4 standard. The overwhelming majority of Lumina Euros were 3.1 powered. I think the Cutlass Supreme convertibles might have had the DOHC 3.4 on occasion.
The first one of those 3.4L TDC engines I ever saw was in a light blue Lumina LS someone I knew purchased used. The second one? Another guy bought a used light blue Lumina LS a couple weeks later. Maybe there was a sale on them at the buy-here-pay-here?
Originally Posted By: sasha
Originally Posted By: Nick R
Wait, the 3.4L in the chevy luminas was a DOHC engine? I thought it was the 3.4L OHV that was in the Venture/etc
the DOHC was used in the
1991–1994 Chevrolet Lumina Z34 and the Euro 3.4 sedan
1991–1996 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
1991–1996 Pontiac Grand Prix
1995–1997 Chevrolet Monte Carlo Z34
1995–1997 Chevrolet Lumina LS
1997 Chevrolet Lumina LTZ
I can't believe it was availiable in the LS.
Even with all those models, it was still not a widely produced engine. The Z34 models are the only Luminas that only came with the DOHC 3.4 standard. The overwhelming majority of Lumina Euros were 3.1 powered. I think the Cutlass Supreme convertibles might have had the DOHC 3.4 on occasion.
The first one of those 3.4L TDC engines I ever saw was in a light blue Lumina LS someone I knew purchased used. The second one? Another guy bought a used light blue Lumina LS a couple weeks later. Maybe there was a sale on them at the buy-here-pay-here?
My wife had a 1995 Grand Prix GTP w/3/4 DOHC V6 when we first started dating in 1998. That engine was a total POS. Gutless isn't good enough to describe it. That whole car was total junk. Perfect example of mid 90's GM. I was so happy when she got rid of that piece of junk.
^^^We know the next line!
"Fords are so much better"
Nice contribution.
"Fords are so much better"
Nice contribution.
So far 24V 6 cylinder engines go, you guys are off by about 70 years or so. "Peugeot had a triple overhead cam 5-valve Grand Prix car in 1921.[14]
Bentley used multi-valve engines from the beginning. The Bentley 3 Litre, introduced in 1921, used a monobloc straight-4 with aluminium pistons, pent-roof combustion chambers, twin spark ignition, SOHC, and four valves per cylinder. It produced appr. 70 bhp (0.38 bhp per cubic inch). The 1927 Bentley 4½ Litre was of similar engine design. The NA racing model offered 130 bhp (0.48 bhp per cubic inch) and the 1929 supercharged 4½ Litre (Blower Bentley) reached 240 bhp (0.89 bhp per cubic inch). The 1926 Bentley 6½ Litre added two cylinders to the monobloc straight-4. This multi-valve straight-6 offered 180-200 bhp (0.45-0.50 bhp per cubic inch). The 1930 Bentley 8 Litre multi-valve straight-6 produced appr. 220 bhp (0.45 bhp per cubic inch)." The technology didn't show up on a V-6 until later, late 50's-early sixties.
Bentley used multi-valve engines from the beginning. The Bentley 3 Litre, introduced in 1921, used a monobloc straight-4 with aluminium pistons, pent-roof combustion chambers, twin spark ignition, SOHC, and four valves per cylinder. It produced appr. 70 bhp (0.38 bhp per cubic inch). The 1927 Bentley 4½ Litre was of similar engine design. The NA racing model offered 130 bhp (0.48 bhp per cubic inch) and the 1929 supercharged 4½ Litre (Blower Bentley) reached 240 bhp (0.89 bhp per cubic inch). The 1926 Bentley 6½ Litre added two cylinders to the monobloc straight-4. This multi-valve straight-6 offered 180-200 bhp (0.45-0.50 bhp per cubic inch). The 1930 Bentley 8 Litre multi-valve straight-6 produced appr. 220 bhp (0.45 bhp per cubic inch)." The technology didn't show up on a V-6 until later, late 50's-early sixties.
Originally Posted By: Maritime Storm
So far 24V 6 cylinder engines go, you guys are off by about 70 years or so.
The original requirement was also having been produced by a domestic automaker.
So far 24V 6 cylinder engines go, you guys are off by about 70 years or so.
The original requirement was also having been produced by a domestic automaker.
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I would count the Taurus SHO engine as mass-production. Introduced in 1988?
Follow-up question: What was the first mass-produced V6 in the US?
That would be the 225 Buick odd-fire.
I think the GMC 305 V6 pre-dated it. But that wasn't a car engine. Just pickups and heavy trucks. It was mass-produced though.
The GMC V6 started production in the 1960 model year.
The Buick V6 started production in the 1962 model year.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I would count the Taurus SHO engine as mass-production. Introduced in 1988?
Follow-up question: What was the first mass-produced V6 in the US?
That would be the 225 Buick odd-fire.
I think the GMC 305 V6 pre-dated it. But that wasn't a car engine. Just pickups and heavy trucks. It was mass-produced though.
The GMC V6 started production in the 1960 model year.
The Buick V6 started production in the 1962 model year.
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
The GMC V6 started production in the 1960 model year.
The Buick V6 started production in the 1962 model year.
There you go guys...
Interestingly the GMC was a 60* V engine using a fresh design, with even 120* firing of the cylinders... Was a big, heavy, HD engine not really suited for automotive applications...
The Buick was a hacked up mess that was actually a V8 with two cylinders removed... They had a convulsive idle because the firing was at intervals of 90 & 150*, even the distributor cap was a V8 type with two towers missing... Buick sold the rights to AMC in the mid '60s to use in Jeep, only to buy them back in in the mid 70s after the gas crunch hit...Finally Buick figured out how to build a crankshaft with stepped rod journals, so in the late 70s was refined into a smooth running engine... Took somewhere around 20 years but the basic design evolved into a World class design used in millions of vehicles...
The Taurus V6 OHC was most certainly mass produced as there were somewhere around 6K to 9K produced in the early years, but as pointed out was built by Yamaha so it really wasn't domestic... I'm not sure where the actual assembly took place...
The GMC V6 started production in the 1960 model year.
The Buick V6 started production in the 1962 model year.
There you go guys...
Interestingly the GMC was a 60* V engine using a fresh design, with even 120* firing of the cylinders... Was a big, heavy, HD engine not really suited for automotive applications...
The Buick was a hacked up mess that was actually a V8 with two cylinders removed... They had a convulsive idle because the firing was at intervals of 90 & 150*, even the distributor cap was a V8 type with two towers missing... Buick sold the rights to AMC in the mid '60s to use in Jeep, only to buy them back in in the mid 70s after the gas crunch hit...Finally Buick figured out how to build a crankshaft with stepped rod journals, so in the late 70s was refined into a smooth running engine... Took somewhere around 20 years but the basic design evolved into a World class design used in millions of vehicles...
The Taurus V6 OHC was most certainly mass produced as there were somewhere around 6K to 9K produced in the early years, but as pointed out was built by Yamaha so it really wasn't domestic... I'm not sure where the actual assembly took place...
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
4.3? That engine is as old as it gets, LOL.
No, its not. I remember when the 4.3 was introduced in the 80s... but I wasn't even alive with the GMC 305 came outin ~61, and was still riding in the car-seat in Mom's 62 Olds 88 when the Buick odd-fire came out.
So, let's exclude the GMC 305 for a minute (as a heavy-truck only engine) and I'll ask another question: what and when was the first mass-produced American v6 of the modern era (post WWII) that was not a [censored] v8 (IOW, a 60-degree v6, not a 90-degree made on a V8 block design).
4.3? That engine is as old as it gets, LOL.
No, its not. I remember when the 4.3 was introduced in the 80s... but I wasn't even alive with the GMC 305 came outin ~61, and was still riding in the car-seat in Mom's 62 Olds 88 when the Buick odd-fire came out.
So, let's exclude the GMC 305 for a minute (as a heavy-truck only engine) and I'll ask another question: what and when was the first mass-produced American v6 of the modern era (post WWII) that was not a [censored] v8 (IOW, a 60-degree v6, not a 90-degree made on a V8 block design).
Originally Posted By: TFB1
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
The GMC V6 started production in the 1960 model year.
The Buick V6 started production in the 1962 model year.
There you go guys...
Interestingly the GMC was a 60* V engine using a fresh design, with even 120* firing of the cylinders... Was a big, heavy, HD engine not really suited for automotive applications...
The Buick was a hacked up mess that was actually a V8 with two cylinders removed... They had a convulsive idle because the firing was at intervals of 90 & 150*, even the distributor cap was a V8 type with two towers missing... Buick sold the rights to AMC in the mid '60s to use in Jeep, only to buy them back in in the mid 70s after the gas crunch hit...Finally Buick figured out how to build a crankshaft with stepped rod journals, so in the late 70s was refined into a smooth running engine... Took somewhere around 20 years but the basic design evolved into a World class design used in millions of vehicles...
I wouldn't be quite so dismissive of the Buick odd-fire / Jeep Dauntless engine. Yes, the exhaust note was horrific because of the periodic extra-long exhaust pulse spacing. But the mechanical balance was actually no worse and IIRC a lot better than the even-fire version without balance shafts, and the crankshaft was stronger than the split-throw design. Note also that 60-degree v6 engines ALSO use split-throw cranks, not to even out the firing but to allow better mechanical balance. The v6 is a nice compact engine format for FWD vehicles, but from a mechanical balance standpoint its a mess whether its a 60 or a 90-degree version. An inline-6 is perfect balance, a flat-6 is as good as perfect, and then a V-type is way down there.
Odd-firing can be made unnoticeable under the right conditions. All the Dodge V10 engines are odd-firing, but there are 2 more cylinders firing every turn of the crank and the short/even difference is much smaller than the Buick V6, so the only way you really notice it is the odd 2-tone exhaust note. Even at idle the engine feels smooth and there's no hint of a lopey idle like the v6.
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
The GMC V6 started production in the 1960 model year.
The Buick V6 started production in the 1962 model year.
There you go guys...
Interestingly the GMC was a 60* V engine using a fresh design, with even 120* firing of the cylinders... Was a big, heavy, HD engine not really suited for automotive applications...
The Buick was a hacked up mess that was actually a V8 with two cylinders removed... They had a convulsive idle because the firing was at intervals of 90 & 150*, even the distributor cap was a V8 type with two towers missing... Buick sold the rights to AMC in the mid '60s to use in Jeep, only to buy them back in in the mid 70s after the gas crunch hit...Finally Buick figured out how to build a crankshaft with stepped rod journals, so in the late 70s was refined into a smooth running engine... Took somewhere around 20 years but the basic design evolved into a World class design used in millions of vehicles...
I wouldn't be quite so dismissive of the Buick odd-fire / Jeep Dauntless engine. Yes, the exhaust note was horrific because of the periodic extra-long exhaust pulse spacing. But the mechanical balance was actually no worse and IIRC a lot better than the even-fire version without balance shafts, and the crankshaft was stronger than the split-throw design. Note also that 60-degree v6 engines ALSO use split-throw cranks, not to even out the firing but to allow better mechanical balance. The v6 is a nice compact engine format for FWD vehicles, but from a mechanical balance standpoint its a mess whether its a 60 or a 90-degree version. An inline-6 is perfect balance, a flat-6 is as good as perfect, and then a V-type is way down there.
Odd-firing can be made unnoticeable under the right conditions. All the Dodge V10 engines are odd-firing, but there are 2 more cylinders firing every turn of the crank and the short/even difference is much smaller than the Buick V6, so the only way you really notice it is the odd 2-tone exhaust note. Even at idle the engine feels smooth and there's no hint of a lopey idle like the v6.
Originally Posted By: Maritime Storm
So far 24V 6 cylinder engines go, you guys are off by about 70 years or so. "Peugeot had a triple overhead cam 5-valve Grand Prix car in 1921.[14]
Bentley used multi-valve engines from the beginning. The Bentley 3 Litre, introduced in 1921, used a monobloc straight-4 with aluminium pistons, pent-roof combustion chambers, twin spark ignition, SOHC, and four valves per cylinder. It produced appr. 70 bhp (0.38 bhp per cubic inch). The 1927 Bentley 4½ Litre was of similar engine design. The NA racing model offered 130 bhp (0.48 bhp per cubic inch) and the 1929 supercharged 4½ Litre (Blower Bentley) reached 240 bhp (0.89 bhp per cubic inch). The 1926 Bentley 6½ Litre added two cylinders to the monobloc straight-4. This multi-valve straight-6 offered 180-200 bhp (0.45-0.50 bhp per cubic inch). The 1930 Bentley 8 Litre multi-valve straight-6 produced appr. 220 bhp (0.45 bhp per cubic inch)." The technology didn't show up on a V-6 until later, late 50's-early sixties.
The OP restricted it to American engines though.
But yeah the Europeans were decades ahead in 6 cylinders compared to this country.
Ferrari Dino anyone?
If you want to talk 20's though Duesenberg had the best technology. WO Bentley just kept making larger motors but he could never approach the power and reliability that the Duesenbery brothers could. WO also never got into forced induction but the Duesenberg brothers did quite successfully. Some of their full race motors put out all kinds of power. If I remember correctly they ran one at the salt flats that put out 500hp at 5k rpm all day long, unheard of during a time of splash oiling systems in Ford's.
I would say Mercedes and Auto Union especially had the most advanced racing engines. Mercedes was playing with the Ducati valve system back in the early 30's.
So far 24V 6 cylinder engines go, you guys are off by about 70 years or so. "Peugeot had a triple overhead cam 5-valve Grand Prix car in 1921.[14]
Bentley used multi-valve engines from the beginning. The Bentley 3 Litre, introduced in 1921, used a monobloc straight-4 with aluminium pistons, pent-roof combustion chambers, twin spark ignition, SOHC, and four valves per cylinder. It produced appr. 70 bhp (0.38 bhp per cubic inch). The 1927 Bentley 4½ Litre was of similar engine design. The NA racing model offered 130 bhp (0.48 bhp per cubic inch) and the 1929 supercharged 4½ Litre (Blower Bentley) reached 240 bhp (0.89 bhp per cubic inch). The 1926 Bentley 6½ Litre added two cylinders to the monobloc straight-4. This multi-valve straight-6 offered 180-200 bhp (0.45-0.50 bhp per cubic inch). The 1930 Bentley 8 Litre multi-valve straight-6 produced appr. 220 bhp (0.45 bhp per cubic inch)." The technology didn't show up on a V-6 until later, late 50's-early sixties.
The OP restricted it to American engines though.
But yeah the Europeans were decades ahead in 6 cylinders compared to this country.
Ferrari Dino anyone?
If you want to talk 20's though Duesenberg had the best technology. WO Bentley just kept making larger motors but he could never approach the power and reliability that the Duesenbery brothers could. WO also never got into forced induction but the Duesenberg brothers did quite successfully. Some of their full race motors put out all kinds of power. If I remember correctly they ran one at the salt flats that put out 500hp at 5k rpm all day long, unheard of during a time of splash oiling systems in Ford's.
I would say Mercedes and Auto Union especially had the most advanced racing engines. Mercedes was playing with the Ducati valve system back in the early 30's.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
...
So, let's exclude the GMC 305 for a minute (as a heavy-truck only engine) and I'll ask another question: what and when was the first mass-produced American v6 of the modern era (post WWII) that was not a [censored] v8 (IOW, a 60-degree v6, not a 90-degree made on a V8 block design).
Probably the GM 2.8 60° V6....even though it's technically an Opel design. It was made in North America
The Ford MustangII solid lifter 2.8 V6 predates it. But it was made in Cologne (Koln) Federal Republic of Germany.
The Mercury Capri V6 predates the MustangII, but that whole car was made in Germany.
as mentioned, AMC just used other people's V6es.
I don't think Chrysler had their own 60° V6 until the 3.3L and by then Ford had the Vulcan 3.0 and GM had several varieties of their 60° V6. Chrysler did have the Mitsubishi 6G72 and their own LA engine with two cylinders sawed off (3.9) but those don't count.
.
The GMC V6 wasn't necessarily a "heavy truck engine". They used them in light pickups. C15-C35
C20 351 V6 badge
...
So, let's exclude the GMC 305 for a minute (as a heavy-truck only engine) and I'll ask another question: what and when was the first mass-produced American v6 of the modern era (post WWII) that was not a [censored] v8 (IOW, a 60-degree v6, not a 90-degree made on a V8 block design).
Probably the GM 2.8 60° V6....even though it's technically an Opel design. It was made in North America
The Ford MustangII solid lifter 2.8 V6 predates it. But it was made in Cologne (Koln) Federal Republic of Germany.
The Mercury Capri V6 predates the MustangII, but that whole car was made in Germany.
as mentioned, AMC just used other people's V6es.
I don't think Chrysler had their own 60° V6 until the 3.3L and by then Ford had the Vulcan 3.0 and GM had several varieties of their 60° V6. Chrysler did have the Mitsubishi 6G72 and their own LA engine with two cylinders sawed off (3.9) but those don't count.
.
The GMC V6 wasn't necessarily a "heavy truck engine". They used them in light pickups. C15-C35
C20 351 V6 badge
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
4.3? That engine is as old as it gets, LOL.
No, its not. I remember when the 4.3 was introduced in the 80s... but I wasn't even alive with the GMC 305 came outin ~61, and was still riding in the car-seat in Mom's 62 Olds 88 when the Buick odd-fire came out.
So, let's exclude the GMC 305 for a minute (as a heavy-truck only engine) and I'll ask another question: what and when was the first mass-produced American v6 of the modern era (post WWII) that was not a [censored] v8 (IOW, a 60-degree v6, not a 90-degree made on a V8 block design).
You're not allowed to exclude the GMC truck V6 because it was so awesomely large that any fan of American engines HAS to like it.
But if you want to talk about cars:
The 2.8L V6 introduced in the GM X-cars in the 1980 model year. As a pushrod engine, that basic design survived all the way to 2011 in displacements up to 3.9L. It's still being produced in China.
But Ford was selling the European 60-degree V6 in Mercury Capri's before then. I think that was referred to as the Cologne V6.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
4.3? That engine is as old as it gets, LOL.
No, its not. I remember when the 4.3 was introduced in the 80s... but I wasn't even alive with the GMC 305 came outin ~61, and was still riding in the car-seat in Mom's 62 Olds 88 when the Buick odd-fire came out.
So, let's exclude the GMC 305 for a minute (as a heavy-truck only engine) and I'll ask another question: what and when was the first mass-produced American v6 of the modern era (post WWII) that was not a [censored] v8 (IOW, a 60-degree v6, not a 90-degree made on a V8 block design).
You're not allowed to exclude the GMC truck V6 because it was so awesomely large that any fan of American engines HAS to like it.
But if you want to talk about cars:
The 2.8L V6 introduced in the GM X-cars in the 1980 model year. As a pushrod engine, that basic design survived all the way to 2011 in displacements up to 3.9L. It's still being produced in China.
But Ford was selling the European 60-degree V6 in Mercury Capri's before then. I think that was referred to as the Cologne V6.
The GMC V-6 was "doubled up " into a 702 V-12!
Originally Posted By: Spazdog
The Ford MustangII solid lifter 2.8 V6 predates it. But it was made in Cologne (Koln) Federal Republic of Germany.
My Mom had a 78 Mustang 2 with the 2.8 V6 with a 4 speed stick. Sounded like it was going to blow up past 3k RPMs.
The Cologne V6 turned into a 4.0 for the Explorer/Ranger and a 4.0 SOHC version for the Explorer/Ranger/Mustang. It had a long run until the 3.7 showed up in the Mustang a few years ago.
The Ford MustangII solid lifter 2.8 V6 predates it. But it was made in Cologne (Koln) Federal Republic of Germany.
My Mom had a 78 Mustang 2 with the 2.8 V6 with a 4 speed stick. Sounded like it was going to blow up past 3k RPMs.
The Cologne V6 turned into a 4.0 for the Explorer/Ranger and a 4.0 SOHC version for the Explorer/Ranger/Mustang. It had a long run until the 3.7 showed up in the Mustang a few years ago.
Originally Posted By: flacoman
The GMC V-6 was "doubled up " into a 702 V-12!
COOL!!!
http://www.6066gmcguy.org/TwinSix.htm
The GMC V-6 was "doubled up " into a 702 V-12!
COOL!!!
http://www.6066gmcguy.org/TwinSix.htm
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