Firebird Borg Warner T5 - add Lucas or Tufoil?

[Styx_Latte]

Anyone ever put Lucas Oil Stabilizer or Tufoil as additives into their T-5 trans? Using Lucas Synthetic 75w90?

I have a V6 Firebird with a Borg Warner T-5 trans, the 5 sp version of / predecessor to the T-56. I've been advised that ATF is not such a great lubricant so I'm currently trying Lucas Synthetic 75w90. I have that in my diff and it works great. At the advice of both Lucas techs and my machine shop, I am using about 10% of their standard Oil stabilizer in the synth gear oil in my diff. I had previously used 20% when the diff bearings were worn and it provided some cushioning. Also I like that the oil kinda sticks to the gears. It's a Torsen so no clutch packs in it, all gears.

I want to do the same thing in my trans, but I'm unsure of using additives. I've started with just the Lucas Synth 75W90 in my trans. I've read a lot of mustang guys saying they use it in their T-5s. While I'm sure the 1-2 synchro is a little worn, I've noticed it got even notchier shifting into 2nd with the cold weather these last few weeks. I'm here in Philly PA and we're generally below freezing right now. Of course after I drive five or ten minutes it warms up and starts shifting normally. I suppose this is because the more viscous oil warms up and works better.

Is it a smart idea to add some of Lucas's standard Oil stabilizer to my trans to improve those nibbly cold shifts? It does seem to blend well with the synth stuff in my diff.

I'm also considering Tufoil; in my engine, it makes these winter starts like butter. I had added Tufoil to the ATF in my previous transmission, and it shifted quite nice, but there were other mechanical issues with that one making it tough to tell what's caused by what.

If I understand synchros correctly, they spin till the teeth grab, at which point the gear is fastened to the shaft. If that's the case, I wouldn't want it TOO slippery in there cause the sychros will take forever to engage. So that's a consideration.

I called Tremec, now the parent company for Borg Warner gear, and the engineer INSISTED on Penzoil Synchromesh. If you want the argument winner, there it is, and it's quite likely I'll be trying that out in my old trans once I have it rebuilt. But in the mean time, I can experiment with the Lucas Synthetic 75w90 on this 92k junkyard trans I scored, and that's what I'm doing. Anyone knowledgeable enough about Lucas and/or Tufoil, and the inner workings of the "World Class" T-5?

Thanks.

 

[The_Eric]

A dedicated manual transmission fluid (MTF) like Pennzoil's Syncromesh or Valvolines MTF would be much better than gear oil.

 

[OldSparks]

If it's a 'world-class' T5, then stay away from gear oil. The WC T5 had organic linings on the synchros that don't play well with regular gear oil.

As well, the WC T5 has roller bearing sleeves, whereas the older non-WC T5 gears ride on bushings. Lighter lubricant is likely more appropriate.

WC T5

I would go with the Tremec reps recommendation.

 

[Styx_Latte]

Well expert advice is usually best, and again, I will most likely go back to the Synchromesh when I get my old trans rebuilt. Meanwhile, the experiment continues. You say gear oil does not play well with organic linings. How does that manifest?

I first thought to add Tufoil into my old trans because it was harder to shift in the winter. Granted I bought the car in the summer and immediately had the ATF changed at Jiffylube, so I don't know what was in it before, but after it was whatever ATF they had that met OE specs. My second winter I got a turkey baster and pulled out some ATF, mixed it with Tufoil in a solo cup, and squirted it back in. Shifting got easier. The trans lasted for a while, but I pulled it a) because of a reverse gear grind and b) because I hated the clutch. Neither are lube related, but there was a third symptom. I'm keeping that to myself for the moment, because I don't want to prompt anyone to go "oh yeah THAT'S it!" but if someone independently mentions this symptom I'll know I have good info.

So how would Lucas oil stabilizer or Tufoil (world's most efficient lubricant according to Guinness) affect my organic lined synchros? Or my bearings? Both are meant as engine oil additives that help the oil stick to engine parts and Lucas is good in my diff for the same reason. I would think they'd be good for the bearings, whereas cold thick gear oil might not get all the way in.

 

[turtlevette]

My older super t10 4spd 79ta sounds like a rock crusher with any lightweight oil of any kind. I've tried a bunch.

 

[Styx_Latte]

Car and Driver reviewed the new 'Vette describing the gearbox as "stirring wet cement with a metal pole" when cold, so I'm disinclined to jump on factory advice. Apparently even today they don't get it quite right.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Styx_Latte
Anyone ever put Lucas Oil Stabilizer or Tufoil as additives into their T-5 trans? Using Lucas Synthetic 75w90?

I have a V6 Firebird with a Borg Warner T-5 trans, the 5 sp version of / predecessor to the T-56. I've been advised that ATF is not such a great lubricant so I'm currently trying Lucas Synthetic 75w90. I have that in my diff and it works great. At the advice of both Lucas techs and my machine shop, I am using about 10% of their standard Oil stabilizer in the synth gear oil in my diff. I had previously used 20% when the diff bearings were worn and it provided some cushioning. Also I like that the oil kinda sticks to the gears. It's a Torsen so no clutch packs in it, all gears.

I want to do the same thing in my trans, but I'm unsure of using additives. I've started with just the Lucas Synth 75W90 in my trans. I've read a lot of mustang guys saying they use it in their T-5s. While I'm sure the 1-2 synchro is a little worn, I've noticed it got even notchier shifting into 2nd with the cold weather these last few weeks. I'm here in Philly PA and we're generally below freezing right now. Of course after I drive five or ten minutes it warms up and starts shifting normally. I suppose this is because the more viscous oil warms up and works better.

Is it a smart idea to add some of Lucas's standard Oil stabilizer to my trans to improve those nibbly cold shifts? It does seem to blend well with the synth stuff in my diff.

I'm also considering Tufoil; in my engine, it makes these winter starts like butter. I had added Tufoil to the ATF in my previous transmission, and it shifted quite nice, but there were other mechanical issues with that one making it tough to tell what's caused by what.

If I understand synchros correctly, they spin till the teeth grab, at which point the gear is fastened to the shaft. If that's the case, I wouldn't want it TOO slippery in there cause the sychros will take forever to engage. So that's a consideration.

I called Tremec, now the parent company for Borg Warner gear, and the engineer INSISTED on Penzoil Synchromesh. If you want the argument winner, there it is, and it's quite likely I'll be trying that out in my old trans once I have it rebuilt. But in the mean time, I can experiment with the Lucas Synthetic 75w90 on this 92k junkyard trans I scored, and that's what I'm doing. Anyone knowledgeable enough about Lucas and/or Tufoil, and the inner workings of the "World Class" T-5?

Thanks.


The trans calls for ATF, not gear lube and the materials inside are designed with that in mind. The older (non-WC) T-5 spec'd gear lube. For winter performance, the best I found was M1 ATF. Straight. No additives. I had Lucas in one that was leaking out the seal and it behaved as you are describing yours with gear lube, notchy as all getup. Which was also how it shifted when I got the car, because some person had the same line of thought as you and thought gear lube was better for it than ATF. That person was wrong.

Also, I wouldn't call the T-5 the predecessor to the T-56, they are nothing alike. It would be more like the predecessor to the T-45 and TR-3650 IMHO.

The synchromesh fluid is also regarded as quite good and is purpose-spec'd for a number of trannies that, in some applications also call for ATF, so it is generally a good replacement/alternative.

 

[Styx_Latte]

[/quote]
For winter performance, the best I found was M1 ATF. Straight. No additives.
...
Also, I wouldn't call the T-5 the predecessor to the T-56, they are nothing alike. It would be more like the predecessor to the T-45 and TR-3650 IMHO.
[/quote]

Mobile 1 ATF, is that the Synthetic? A quick google search doesn't show dinoATF (but it does reference the Mobile vs Amsoil thread on this forum). Is Synchromesh also synthetic? What advantage does that offer me here over conventional ATF?

 

[Styx_Latte]

And uh, thanks for the info about the T-5 vs T-56. I thought they'd be mechanically similar since the T5 was in Firebirds all that time and then they used the T56 for the 6sp/8cyl combo in later years. Familiar with the differences? I noticed a similar oil thread about the T56 with similar comments.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Styx_Latte
And uh, thanks for the info about the T-5 vs T-56. I thought they'd be mechanically similar since the T5 was in Firebirds all that time and then they used the T56 for the 6sp/8cyl combo in later years. Familiar with the differences? I noticed a similar oil thread about the T56 with similar comments.


Yes, they are completely different transmissions designed for massively different power levels. The T-56 was one of the trannies that spec'd either ATF or synchromesh depending on application.

The T-5 is a much smaller, much lighter unit than the T-56, which is a comparably massive gearbox.

Regarding M1 ATF yes, that's synthetic, anything that says "Mobil 1" is synthetic, only the regular Mobil products (no 1) are conventional, blends or "other".

 

[Styx_Latte]

Seems like the M1 and the Synchromesh arrive at the same outcome with different formulas, when you compare each manufacturer's website descriptions. I don't understand the specs as well, but at a glance I can see how M1 would be really good in this application. However given that Tremec recommends the Synchromesh, I fail to see the advantage of M1 synth ATF if both fluids perform the same.


Also, I haven't heard a peep about Tufoil? Anyone got experience with it other than in their engines? Any guesses how it would interact with organic synchro lining?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Styx_Latte
Seems like the M1 and the Synchromesh arrive at the same outcome with different formulas, when you compare each manufacturer's website descriptions. I don't understand the specs as well, but at a glance I can see how M1 would be really good in this application. However given that Tremec recommends the Synchromesh, I fail to see the advantage of M1 synth ATF if both fluids perform the same.


It just depends on the application, not really an inherent advantage one has over the other. The T-5 never spec'd synchromesh fluid, only ATF in the WC and in the earlier non-WC, gear lube. On the other hand the T-56 (a completely different transmission) spec'd both fluids depending on the OEM. So if it was in a 'vette it may have spec'd synchromesh while in an '03 Cobra it spec'd ATF. Follow?

You CAN use synchromesh fluid in the T-5, but it never called for it, it called for ATF. I ran ATF in mine (M1 ATF specifically) and the performance was excellent.

Originally Posted By: Styx_Latte
Also, I haven't heard a peep about Tufoil? Anyone got experience with it other than in their engines? Any guesses how it would interact with organic synchro lining?


I'm not a fan of playing chemist the home game, I figure if the formula could have been made better by the addition of this or that it would have been included in the first place. Since it wasn't, there's probably a reason.

Lubricants are a blend of a number of components to achieve their final performance characteristics and obtain their respective approvals. While there is the possibility that screwing with that balance could result in a better product the odds of that actually panning out are slim to none.

 

[dailydriver]

^^^I've NEVER heard of a T56 application which actually called for (in the manual, OR from Tremec) an MTL over a Dex 3 type ATF, save for the Vipers, where they called for (and were factory filled with) the Castrol SynTorq fluid due to the poor under body ventilation, and subsequent gearbox heat issues.

 

[Styx_Latte]

Well I talked to Frank today at Tufoil. He's the guy who invented Tufoil. Basically he said he couldn't be certain how Tufoil would interact with organic linings on synchros. In case anyone else was wondering. Which is a shame because I swear it made my original transmission shift smoother (less notchy going into 2nd) in cold weather. But better safe than sorry.

On the other hand, as mentioned in my first post, Mr Tremec insisted on Synchromesh nowadays for the Borg Warner T5. The formula is basically like my Irish grandmother's soup recipe (throw everything you have in the pot) but it seems well thought out with a blend that probably more than accounts for what tufoil would add. So I'll agree with your opinion on playing home chemist, Overkill. It may have improved over standard ATF in some regards but who knows if Tufoil + ATF covered all bases? maybe not.

So you say you bought this 'bird with Lucas gear oil in the box and it shifted all sloppy like mine is. Is that the same transmission you switched to M1 in? Did you see an immediate performance improvement after switching, was it gradual, or did you just scrap that and start using M1 in a whole different transmission? The stakes are low here for me, the car still gets me to work and I still plan to have to old one rebuilt. But it'd be nice to know if this trans is still good for a while. Plus I notice you're in Ontario, I do make my way up to Toronto once a year in March so all these issues become a little more drastic; hence the interest in improvements. I don't put mine away for the winter as the Chevy dealer in Scarborough once suggested...

 

[69GTX]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
^^^I've NEVER heard of a T56 application which actually called for (in the manual, OR from Tremec) an MTL over a Dex 3 type ATF, save for the Vipers, where they called for (and were factory filled with) the Castrol SynTorq fluid due to the poor under body ventilation, and subsequent gearbox heat issues.

I went through this 3 years ago and Tremec at that time only recommended regular ATF and Mobil 1 ATF in their T56's. This was on a discussion with 1998-2002 F Bodies but I don't see why it wouldn't have applied to similar HP models (ie the Vette). I can see GM or Pennz Synchromex being a logical choice as well though. To my knowledge Tremec's official stance hasn't changed any though any particular engineer there might have their own preference. I use regular ATF Dex3 in my '99 SS T56 as my driving style is pretty moderate. The very first 1-2 shift in cold weather is a touch notchy. But that goes away after about 2 minutes.

Here's a post from LS1Tech.com concerning T56 fluid choices

 

[Styx_Latte]

Looks like we all get different answers based on climate and what day we talk to Tremec on. I'm also forming the hypothesis that Synchromesh (thicker) is good in Texas where it's hot and M1 might be good up north... except the manufacturer warns of rough cold climate shifting. I wonder how cold? Overkill seems to like it up there in Ontario.


For shifts and giggles, anyone know what happens when you mix both products in the same gearbox? Ha ha...

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Styx_Latte

So you say you bought this 'bird with Lucas gear oil in the box and it shifted all sloppy like mine is. Is that the same transmission you switched to M1 in?


Two different transmission stories with the same outcome:

1. Transmission that was in the car when I bought it, somebody had put gear lube (probably 75w-90 or 80w-90) in it. It was notchy as all heck when cold. I dumped it, put M1 ATF in it and the shifting improved dramatically, was basically perfect when cold, not notchy at all.

I ended up buggering up that transmission at the drag strip when I twisted the yoke I had on it (my fault) and the driveshaft shifted the guts of the transmission back 3/4" which rendered it FUBAR.

While that transmission was getting fixed I was given another T-5 from a friend of mine which, initially, I ran M1 ATF in. However, it had a leak at the rear seal and in an attempt to get rid of the leak I put in Lucas. this resulted in it becoming notchy when cold and generally feeling like my first gearbox when I had ATF in it. I put a new rear seal in it, dumped the Lucas mix, put M1 ATF back in it and it was fine.

That help?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
^^^I've NEVER heard of a T56 application which actually called for (in the manual, OR from Tremec) an MTL over a Dex 3 type ATF, save for the Vipers, where they called for (and were factory filled with) the Castrol SynTorq fluid due to the poor under body ventilation, and subsequent gearbox heat issues.

What I was thinking about was GM part # 12345349

Summit states:

Originally Posted By: Summit
Chevrolet Performance Synchromesh transmission fluid is designed for GM manual transmissions and is the recommended lubricant for all Tremec brand manual transmissions. It has been formulated with a partially synthetic base for excellent lubrication properties and does not break down after time. Chevrolet Performance Synchromesh transmission fluid can withstand high temperatures as well as cool, low temperatures.


Though I see Tremec states that this product is for the TKO and that all of their aftermarket transmissions use Dex III:

Originally Posted By: Tremec
For all TKO 5-speed models, TREMEC recommends GM Synchromesh (GM Part # 12345349). For all other aftermarket models we recommend Dexron III ATF.


http://www.tremec.com/menu.php?m=110

I believe the trans says "Dex III" on it but I have also read that the dealers, if they changed it, put the above stuff in them instead. So I guess it gets used as a service fill for the T-56 but was not factory fill. And of course that may vary dealer to dealer.

So you are right, the T-56 didn't call for synchromesh, but it has been used as a service fill by GM.

 

[Styx_Latte]

Thanks Overkill, yeah that anecdote is exactly the sort of thing I like to hear about. I started this post saying I'll likely go back to Synchromesh as per the Tremec guy's advice, but while I have this junkyard trans in, if what you did worked (M1) I think I might wanna try it.

So interestingly enough the Synchromesh I was talking about is a Penzoil product, as far as I'm concerned, but I'm not sure the Tremec guy realized that on the phone. And so now I see there is a GM flavored version. Ordinarily I'd be inclined to trust the manufacturer's product as best. But this is GM, and they have a reputation for letting parts wear out early. So the rabbit hole continues; although wondering WHICH Synchromesh is best may be just splitting hairs, or may vary by climate anyway.

 

[dailydriver]

I believe ONE of the many various GM synchromesh fluids IS actually the Pennzoil Synchromesh product in a GM labelled bottle.