Filtration or Flow?

[guile]

What's most important? I know this topic has been discussed in great detail, still don't know what's most important. Some interesting details:
PureOne:
- 86% efficient at 10 microns and larger (website)
WIX:
- 90% efficient for 29 microns (email from techrep)
PureOne:
- Flow 3 GPM (tech book at Autozone)
WIX:
- Flow 9-11 GPM (email from techrep)

 

[Jason8691]

Im no expert, but I would think it greatly depends on the application. If your drivin a performance auto-flow would be better, if you looking for longevity, filtration. If you want both you have to spend a few pesos and get a high flow like System 1 or Canton AND a bypass, then you get the best of both worlds!

 

[edwardh1]

The basic problem we all have is that we do not know either the basic minimum flow rate (probably so many GPM per cylinder) or even what the basic minimum filtartion in micron size should be.
without those all the many posts on this board are just opinions

 

[Leo]

For filtration minimums, just find out your bearing clearances. For instance, in my SR20DET, the std main bearing clearance is 0.004mm to 0.022mm. Ie 4 microns to 22microns! I'd hate to think about a spec of dirt getting wedged into a bearing and never get out...

Seems filtration is pretty important to me...

 

[Spector]

I vote for flow as IMO, the filters are useless in removing silicon that really is non existent (well too small) to cause wear in the engine and the oil does all the work. Filter media (unless using RX or a cleaning agent which will dump debris but even then the filters are missing a lot of crap that still is in the pan upon draining the oil) are just too clean for me to say they do anything other then add oil volume and make profits for the filter companies. Can't prove that. Was really waiting for Bob's current test where he is running with no filter at all to compare to the filter UOA. Flow better then filter in reducing wear was the hypothesis. We may not see that for a while now.

I am trying a run of 12,000 miles without changing filters to compare to similar runs with the filter changed at 6000 using Amosil filters.

So, better flow reduces wear more then better filtration!!!!!

 

[Schultz]

What's most important? I know this topic has been discussed in great detail, still don't know what's most important. Some interesting details:
PureOne:
- 86% efficient at 10 microns and larger (website)
WIX:
- 90% efficient for 29 microns (email from techrep)
PureOne:
- Flow 3 GPM (tech book at Autozone)
WIX:
- Flow 9-11 GPM (email from techrep)


After seeing what the absolute rating (largest pore size) via oil bubble point test was on the Pure 1 (50µm) and the standard Motorcraft FL-400S (90µm) I wasn't all that impressed, in fact I was disappointed.

I became a believer in the bypass filters and agree with another post that said something like: Why bother with these full flow filters, if you're that concerned, get a bypass system along with a standard filter and don't worry about it anymore.

Well you can have both: full flow and absolute filtration down to 5µm (nominal rating would be much less) in a spin on filter. All it would take some work and little cash. McMaster Carr sells return line hydraulic filters with absolute ratings down to 5µm and flows from 15gpm to 60gpm with less than 15psi pressure drop. The 15 gpm spin on has a common 3/4" thread and seal diameter. Unfortunately, it doesn't have the anti-drain back or bypass valve in the filter. You can order the 5µm filter & filter holder with 15psi bypass valve for about $42. Page 310 at link below. If you want full flow and filtration less than 5µm absolute then you would probably have to use a cartridge system. With that, you can easily obtain 1µm absolute filtration in a 10” cartridge.

I'm either going to put a spin on or a cartridge housing system like on page 319. My only reasoning for the cartridge housing would be I could use my company cartridges. Either system could be full flow or bypass. If used in full flow then a pressure gauge (so you know when to change the filters) and bypass valve would be mandatory. A check valve would be nice as an anti-drain-back device.

See Mcmaster Link
McMaster Carr

 

[TC]

I agree with Edwardh1 that the spec's available are typically incomplete. So a flow rate in gpm for a filter is meaningless without a corresponding pressure. If one filter flows 5 gpm at 20 psi, while another requires 40 psi of "push" to achieve the same 5 gpm flow, the former filter "flows" much better. If you're concerned about filter flow, I'd simply suggest finding an oversized version of a brand you like and leave it at that, unless you're racing, in which you can look into the racing products, which often have plenty of flow and pressure spec's posted. Wix and Baldwin will provide you with media areas for a given part # if you e-mail them, and the oversized PureOnes I just bought have about 50% more area than stock Purolators by my measurements, for example.

Leo, a while back I had the same thoughts as you about bearing clearances. But it turns out that once an engine is operating, the actual bearing clearances can change over static measurements. SAE Paper 881825 determined that clearances in operating engines varied between 2 and 22 microns (0.078-0.858 thousands of an inch, or 0.002-0.022 mm), and that particles in that range were therefore most likely to cause wear. Keep in mind that these numbers must be multiplied by the square root of a kangaroo's toe count for your neck of the woods.

http://www.guarding-our-earth.com/amsoil/newsletter12.txt

[ November 14, 2003, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: TC ]

 

[TR3-2001SE]

I am with TC. I think the larger the filter area the more it will flow. Oversize filters will flow more than smaller filter. What filter where you given the spec above for?? You have to have the psi before flow specs. would mean much. I would guess it varies greatly with the size and there really is quite a difference in size filters from one application to the next. I think you can have both flow and filtration. It is a question of how large the filter for a given application is needed.

 

[guile]

My oversight, didn't post the part numbers. Filters are for a 98 Civic VTEC
WIX: 51334
PureOne: PL14459

Just recieved another email from the WIX tech that now states the WIX is 95% efficient at removing all particles 19 micron and larger. I sent a reply requesting clarification between the two conflicting pieces of data. And I do agree that the PSI does count. It will be interesting to see the results of Bob's test. Bottom line I'm comfortable that the WIX is a good filter for my application.

 

[RalphPWood]

A dragster needs a large full flow system like two large full flow filters. Depth filtration isn't too important. The way I drive back and forth to work I don't need a full flow filter. All I need is depth filtration. All I require is maximum engine life with no routine oil changes. The system of allowing oil to get dirty wear and foul the engine then draining it wasn't designed for long equipment life. You need to know to use a good oil and never allow it to get dirty. You can be to skinny but your oil can't be too clean. Even the experts disagree about where to draw the line between what size abrasives cause the most wear. Some say 5 to 10 some 5 to 20. One is considered nonabrasive in lube oil. The problem with submicronic particles is they can keep building up in the oil until they displace the oil. Soot particles too small for even the best filters to remove are not harmless. Soot is a poor lubricant. I expect the oil to always look like new. If it looks like light honey I'm happy if it looks like dark honey I change the filter and add a quart of oil. On my diesel engine it's a different story. I am going to expect it to get black. If I put a drop of oil in the palm of my hand and smear it around I expect it to leave a clear oily film. A friend just sent a very black sample of oil to the lab to be analyzed. The report showed it to be very clean after a trip to Alaska in a 8.3 Cummins in a large motor home. I know of several filters capable of cleaning oil. I am going to prefer the one that has the best quality and is the easiest to service. I have no interest in filters that are not submicronic or have expensive elements. I don't lose too much sleep over other people's opinions. Some times we get too wrapped up on technical details. A submicronic bypass filter is pouring oil slowly thru a bale of cotton. A full flow filter is dumping oil on a bed sheet. You can use two bed sheets and claim you have a filter that can filter twice as good but it still won't be as good as the bale of cotton. You can roll some fiber glass across it and call it an improved filber glass filter. It still won't clean oil. The biggest challenge most filter makers have is equipment owners with common sense. They can bs the others.

Ralph

 

[Spector]

Very nicely said Ralphpwood!


I don't lose too much sleep over other people's opinions. Some times we get too wrapped up on technical details. A submicronic bypass filter is pouring oil slowly thru a bale of cotton. A full flow filter is dumping oil on a bed sheet. You can use two bed sheets and claim you have a filter that can filter twice as good but it still won't be as good as the bale of cotton. You can roll some fiber glass across it and call it an improved filber glass filter. It still won't clean oil. The biggest challenge most filter makers have is equipment owners with common sense. They can bs the others.

 

[TC]

Yo, Guile! Turns out that your Honda uses the same filter as my Mitsubishi-powered Mopar V-6. Oversized options for you, whether larger in diameter or length -- and all having the same-sized or very similar gasket -- include:

-Wix 51334 (stock): 134 sq in, 3.3" dia x 3.2" long
-Wix 51064: 150 sq in, 3.2" dia x 2.9" long
-Wix 51568: 243 sq in, 3.2" dia x 4.1" long
-Baldwin B168: 213 sq in, 3" dia x 5-3/32" long
-Purolator L24458/PL24458: Approx. 50% longer cartridge and more area than L14459/PL14459 by my measurements, 3-1/8" dia for both, 3" long for 14459, 3-15/16" long for 24458.

You can e-mail me with further questions on the above filters if you want. If you can go bigger diameter, but not longer, carefully check into the filter for the 1988 Mitsubishi Montero.

[ November 15, 2003, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: TC ]

 

[geeeman]

Guile...

Napa Gold 1344 works very well in Hondas...

Just a taller version of the 1334; EVERYTHING is identical to a 1334, except the element is an inch+ taller.

 

[TC]

That's another good option. Spec's for #1344:

-Dia: 3.2"
-Length: 4.1"
-Area: 192 sq in
-Gasket: Almost identical

[ November 15, 2003, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: TC ]

 

[geeeman]

TC...the gasket IS IDENTICAL too! I'm holding a 1334, and lookin' at a 1344. Take the gaskets out and they ARE the same...spec sheet says different, but it lies!

 

[Mykro]

quote:

---

Originally posted by RalphPWood:
A dragster needs a large full flow system like two large full flow filters. Depth filtration isn't too important. The way I drive back and forth to work I don't need a full flow filter. All I need is depth filtration. All I require is maximum engine life with no routine oil changes. The system of allowing oil to get dirty wear and foul the engine then draining it wasn't designed for long equipment life. You need to know to use a good oil and never allow it to get dirty. You can be to skinny but your oil can't be too clean. Even the experts disagree about where to draw the line between what size abrasives cause the most wear. Some say 5 to 10 some 5 to 20. One is considered nonabrasive in lube oil. The problem with submicronic particles is they can keep building up in the oil until they displace the oil. Soot particles too small for even the best filters to remove are not harmless. Soot is a poor lubricant. I expect the oil to always look like new. If it looks like light honey I'm happy if it looks like dark honey I change the filter and add a quart of oil. On my diesel engine it's a different story. I am going to expect it to get black. If I put a drop of oil in the palm of my hand and smear it around I expect it to leave a clear oily film. A friend just sent a very black sample of oil to the lab to be analyzed. The report showed it to be very clean after a trip to Alaska in a 8.3 Cummins in a large motor home. I know of several filters capable of cleaning oil. I am going to prefer the one that has the best quality and is the easiest to service. I have no interest in filters that are not submicronic or have expensive elements. I don't lose too much sleep over other people's opinions. Some times we get too wrapped up on technical details. A submicronic bypass filter is pouring oil slowly thru a bale of cotton. A full flow filter is dumping oil on a bed sheet. You can use two bed sheets and claim you have a filter that can filter twice as good but it still won't be as good as the bale of cotton. You can roll some fiber glass across it and call it an improved filber glass filter. It still won't clean oil. The biggest challenge most filter makers have is equipment owners with common sense. They can bs the others.

Ralph

---

"Ditto" Ralph

You hit the nail on the head with this one!
I'm a "Bale of Cotton" guy for life.. I've got 3 Frantz Filters on my PSD and its "thee" best, most important, and should be the first modification / investment anyone can make for their vehicle.. IMHO of course!

 

[John K]

Does anyone know what the design flow rate is of the oil pumps? Do manufacturers put out this info? Seems that is also a piece of info needed, and if I am not mistaken they are positive displacement pumps.... Years ago I read an SAE paper that said that valve train wear was caused by particles less than 20 microns....

A lot was given up when car makers switched from bypass filters to full flow filters, but they were concerned about big pieces doing damage. I agree with those that think the ideal setup is a full flow filter and a bypass filter.

John

 

[John K]

As far as the hydraulic filters you mention, they are designed for clean hydraulic fluids which have much more stringent needs, with an ic engine you would have much more contamination and I'd be concerned with how fast they would plug up........