Filter Quality

[MKZman]

Some automakers sell their own oil and filters. The engine designers test their engines and would guess, like Ford, they use these in their tests. If their oil filers are supposedly now "junk" one would think the engine team would notice. Ford may not care out of warranty we are talking in warranty issues since there is probably 5 to 10 filter changes in warranty period. Or, they have determined it has no real impact to warranty.

I worked in R&D as an engineer, technical project manager, and also the test side so curious what was discussed and decided since we had to deal warranty claims, etc.

We have know about the "paper" Frams for years but one would think law firm would jump at the chance for a lawsuit if there was a serious issue. I did find a wad of paper in an oil years ago. I noticed it because it was blocking the oil from draining initially,

Just curious.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Automakers don't make their own oil filters. They have specifications for their OEM oil filters from the engine engineers (some also use USCAR-36 for minimum oil filter specs), and give that information to aftermarket filter makers to meet and supply the OEM filters.

The filters are tested by the filter makers per many applicable ISO 4548 test procedures (there are 14 different performance test sections now - Section 8 was discontinued) to verify the performance.

https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/en/#iso:std:iso:4548:-15:ed-1:v1:en

We have know about the "paper" Frams for years but one would think law firm would jump at the chance for a lawsuit if there was a serious issue.

Main brand aftermarket filter makers have a warranty, so if a filter happens to do damage to an engine and it can be proven the oil filter was the cause then the filter maker will pay for the repair or engine replacement under their filter warranty. That's why there aren't lawsuits unless they deny the warranty and the guy thinks he can sue them for the denial.

 

[DCDG]

Manufacturers along with their engineering teams bid out the specifications that meet the needs for the engine design, same goes for oil they just stick a label on it. An example is GM contracted Champ labs for filters and Exxon as their oil supplier for years even seen ConocoPhillips bottle sporting ACDelco insignia.

 

[grasscutter]

MKZman,

You just now ran into a brick wall called 'ZeeOSix'

 

[SC Maintenance]

You could probably run an empty can for 60K miles and make it through warranty.

Also, OEM's spec one thing then don't follow up on QC, like louvers not open. If the filter runs in bypass more often does OEM care?

Even if there is extra glue - if it lets go what are the chances it actually causes problems. As an engineer you understand the probabilities well likely.

I don't think most OEM filters are terrible. Even the crappy Grupo Gohner Nissan filters many people use for the entire life of the vehicle? There are simply much better to be had often at a lower price.

 

[Chris142]

We have know about the "paper" Frams for years

Nothing wrong with non metal end caps..

 

[ZeeOSix]

Design is one thing, and being able to manufacture it per specs and drawings is another - that gors for any product. A design could be perfect on paper, but if manufacturing enginers and people running the production line fall down you can get junk like closed louvers, ruffled and warped leaky leaf springs, cut ADBV, torn media, leaky crimp seams, etc. There have e been a few cases posted here over the years where a filter defect caused engine damage, and the filter maker paid for the damage. It's rare, but it happens.

A defect like choked down louvers or a leaky leaf spring won't do much beyond possible added wear from poor filtration. But most people aren't going to use defective filters if there are better options.

 

[MKZman]

Design is one thing, and being able to manufacture it per specs and drawings is another - that gors for any product. A design could be perfect on paper, but if manufacturing enginers and people running the production line fall down you can get junk like closed louvers, ruffled and warped leaky leaf springs, cut ADBV, torn media, leaky crimp seams, etc. There have e been a few cases posted here over the years where a filter defect caused engine damage, and the filter maker paid for the damage. It's rare, but it happens.

I know that well. Been there done that. But in this case, filter makers and automakers are clearly after cost and the goal is to make acceptable filter at lowest cost. They test engines so they can see affects of a filter (visual or actual). Ford does not make their filters but they surely test them indirectly. Oil makers do too. We known Pennzoil uses fleet vehicles for data, They are using filters too so there is a lot of usage to gather actual experience.

I do not think most car owners know what brand filter is in the car if they take it to a non-dealer. Ignorance is bliss.

But then, filter issues are not the leading cause of engine failure. But since people here focus on oil and filters, they get a lot scrutiny.

Let me ask this question. Would any automaker factory installed filter pass muster here?

 

[SC Maintenance]

I know that well. Been there done that. But in this case, filter makers and automakers are clearly after cost and the goal is to make acceptable filter at lowest cost. They test engines so they can see affects of a filter (visual or actual). Ford does not make their filters but they surely test them indirectly. Oil makers do too. We known Pennzoil uses fleet vehicles for data, They are using filters too.

After initial design, once this stuff is in the wild no OEM tracks it. Too much cost, no return. They rely on complaints from there dealer network to take action. We see this with every type of QC or other problem. Until the failures rate reaches some noticeable percentage, no one pays any attention.

So lets take this to an oil filter. OEM specs whatever. Dealer receives filter, goes on customer car. Louvers restrict flow. Bypass doesn't seal. Really doesn't filter much at all. In 5 or 10K miles customer returns. No driveability issues at all, filter is replaced and disposed of - none the wiser.

How would an OEM ever figure out a filter is NFG? The potential issue from it don't show up for 100K miles, long after they care.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Edit - wrong thread.

 

[Robster]

But most people aren't going to use defective filters if there are better options.

MOST PEOPLE don't know or don't care about filters, or oil. BITOG members are statistical outliers when it comes to car maintenance. The people in these forums actually read the car's FM and then wonder, "How can I do it better". So yeah, MOST people will use whatever filter and oil the quick-lube place sells them at inflated prices.

 

[ZeeOSix]

MOST PEOPLE don't know or don't care about filters, or oil. BITOG members are statistical outliers when it comes to car maintenance. The people in these forums actually read the car's FM and then wonder, "How can I do it better". So yeah, MOST people will use whatever filter and oil the quick-lube place sells them at inflated prices.

I'm talking about people who know that there possible defects based on C&P evidence of defects. For instance, here on BITOG there were some people who tried to justify filters with torn media or leaky leaf springs like it was no big deal. But if they know and think that it's no big deal and want to keep using those filters, then I say go for it ... not my machine. Of course people that don't know there is an issue wouldn't have any reason to make a decision to use something else.

 

[kschachn]

Nothing wrong with non metal end caps..

I prefer them myself. Either those or no end cap at all. Fiber end caps are tightly adhered, we have seen multiple cases here where metal caps have come off.

I understand metal caps are necessary for certain filtering media, however.

As much as the OP wishes to dislike them they are used on OEM filters as well.

 

[ZeeOSix]

How would an OEM ever figure out a filter is NFG?

Some manufactures do know some of these issues exist, but yet seem to not really address it - for instance, Ford & Purolator on the junk black glue used on Motorcraft filters that sheds off during use. That has been going on for at least 3 years. Or with many brands, the wild inconsistancy with louvers formation. It really doesn't seem like rocket science to form decent louvrers 100% of the time. If these filter companies don't know about there issues they probably should be in the business of making oil filters.

One example were a major issue was actually addressed was in the early days of the eCore center tube with too wide of windows and media would blow-out and go into the engine. It was Champion Labs who was the eCore inventor, and after some of that chaos surfaced in the field they finally wised up and tightened up the eCore center tube windows.

When Purolators were show to be tearing media on a daily basis on this site, Purolator finally found out and even gave some lame excuses on they it was potentially happening ... some nonsense about people are using filters that are "too old", etc. even though date codes showed otherwise When we all know it was brittle media combines with too wide of pleat spacing.

When Motorking from Fram was a member here, he was a direct feedback channel to Fram on any issues that the members here pointed out. I'm betting other filter companies have someone at least read this site for real world use feedback.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Some manufactures do know some of these issues exist, but yet seem to not really address it - for instance, Ford & Purolator on the junk black glue used on Motorcraft filters that sheds off during use. That has been going on for at least 3 years. Or with many brands, the wild inconsistancy with louvers formation. It really doesn't seem like rocket science to form decent louvrers 100% of the time. If these filter companies don't know about there issues they probably should be in the business of making oil filters.

One example were a major issue was actually addressed was in the early days of the eCore center tube with too wide of windows and media would blow-out and go into the engine. It was Champion Labs who was the eCore inventor, and after some of that chaos surfaced in the field they finally wised up and tightened up the eCore center tube windows.

When Purolators were show to be tearing media on a daily basis on this site, Purolator finally found out and even gave some lame excuses on they it was potentially happening ... some nonsense about people are using filters that are "too old", etc. even though date codes showed otherwise When we all know it was brittle media combines with too wide of pleat spacing.

When Motorking from Fram was a member here, he was a direct feedback channel to Fram on any issues that the members here pointed out. I'm betting other filter companies have someone at least read this site for real world use feedback.

The only thing that would matter to Ford or other auto OEM would be how many filters came back on warranty, or problems caused by filters coming back on warranty - whether it be new auto warranty or warranty on the replacement parts themselves. Those are the official numbers and are the only thing that is going to move the needle. So if the dealer just tosses the filter - no report, no warranty claim, no care.

There is a QC department but there usually busy with real problems. At the end of the day all anyone really cares is if its costing the company money. So if its not costing Ford / Toyota/ whomever money, or the "official" statistic say failure rates are low - no one will look at it.

It may matter specifically to the oil filter company - if they care to begin with of course which its seems many don't - and in the case of Fram now we know why.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I know that well. Been there done that. But in this case, filter makers and automakers are clearly after cost and the goal is to make acceptable filter at lowest cost. They test engines so they can see affects of a filter (visual or actual). Ford does not make their filters but they surely test them indirectly.

Like @SC Maintenance pointed out, automakers aren't in the business of testing oil filters. The contracted filter maker is given filter specifications to meet, and they then design, manufacture and test the filters per all the applicable ISO 4548 test specs I gave in post 2. Once a filter is designed and verified that's it unless some issue crops up after it's released for sale and use. Like the eCore center tube example I gave above. If a good filter company listens to the feedback from real world field use they may see some issues, like tearing media, ruffled leaky leaf springs or choked down louvers that they can address in the manufacturing process.

Oil makers do too. We known Pennzoil uses fleet vehicles for data, They are using filters too so there is a lot of usage to gather actual experience.

The oil makers have their oil blends tested by independent labs, and some will also have their own labs (like Mobil 1 and Valvoline) and do fleet testing. But the car manufactures are not testing oil either. They rely on the oil companies to provide the correct oil, just like they depend on the oil filter companies to provide the correct oil filter, and any other products that go into a vehicle on the factory assembly line that Ford doesn't directly manufacture.

I do not think most car owners know what brand filter is in the car if they take it to a non-dealer. Ignorance is bliss.

Yeah, most people just drive and don't know much about anything about vehicles.

But then, filter issues are not the leading cause of engine failure. But since people here focus on oil and filters, they get a lot scrutiny.

Yes, it's rare and there have been some instances posted here about oil filters causing engine damage. There are also issues that are not going to take an engine out, but certainly degrades the filtering ability or other performance aspects of the filter. Those are the filters that people who understand and care about design and quality issues will typically will stop using and find a better option. It's happened here on BITOG many times over the years.

Let me ask this question. Would any automaker factory installed filter pass muster here?

The oil filters installed on the factory assembly line are typically different than the "OEM" filter purchased at the dealership. That's been my experience at least. For instance, the "FoMoCo" oil filter installed on the Coyote V8 at the factory didn't look anything like the Motorcraft branded filter. And factory installed parts can be coming from different suppliers at times. Every factory installed filter I've ever cut open looked to be built well.

 

[ZeeOSix]

It may matter specifically to the oil filter company - if they care to begin with of course which its seems many don't - and in the case of Fram now we know why.

We know why First Brands killed Fram - corporate greed. Back when Motorking was here, Fram was doing quite well especially with all the high praise the Fram Ultra had here and probably over most of the automotive world. And the feedback that Motorking got here was a huge plus to Fram with some real world use feedback, and all for free - just had to read the forum. If other oil filter makers were smart, they would have someone at least reading this forum on a regular basis to see what's going on with their oil filters after use, as BITOG members are the "testers" in that respect

Automakers who source their oil filters should also be concerned before a possible problem starts taking out engines under warranty. But as you pointed out they are too busy doing other "corporate stuff" to worry about parts they don't directly build, and just take trust in their suppliers to identify and address design and quality issues. It could be a risky way to operate if their suppliers are sleeping at the wheel.

 

[OVERKILL]

Let me ask this question. Would any automaker factory installed filter pass muster here?

It's not unusual for the factory installed filter to be different from the service filter, even a different brand. For Ford, I remember at one point that the factory filters were Champ Labs and the service filters were Purolator.

*edit, see Zee beat me to mentioning this, lol*

 

[JoeDirt41]

I’m so confused by the original post… is there a question?

 

[MKZman]

My point was that engine makers do not need to design filters but they along with oil companies that do fleet testing use a lot of filters in the course of their work. They know they have are supposed to meet certain specs. They use a lot of filters during their normal testing. They would know of filter issues that had a statistically significantly impact.

For example, say Ford tests 20 engines as part of some life test (assume 100K just to do some math). At 10k (or some hour number), they will use 200 filters in total - far more than anyone here - and under controlled conditions The same idea can be applied to Pennzoil, Valvoline, etc when they do fleet testing. I am sure they are not using the premium brand filters.

The net is unlike one off anecdotal comments, they experience see results that could really point to a trend. If there is some filter issue due to manufacturing design/quality.

Mechanics on the other end also see results but they do not have the denominator to assess issue. I realize some believe they may not care as some big conspiracy because of economic reasons but they would know if there is a poor quality design/manufacture of filters.

I like a high quality filter (design and manufacture) but from my R&D background, I wonder what the automakers and oil producers experience with the quality of filters.

Reading these threads the view is that most oil filter's design and manufacturing has dropped but it is having a real impact to those that would be first to know. There is a lot of speculating (popular hobby) but no real data.