Oil Filter and Air Filter overrated?

[ThugStyle]

Hi everyone,
I gained knowledge from this site, and now I made an account to give back a bit. I’m not a car expert, but I do have a chemistry background.

I was reading the free warranty Pennzoil offers, 500k miles for using only Pennzoil Ultra and 300k for using any other Pennzoil oil from less than 75k miles or 72 months onwards:

https://www.pennzoil.com/en_us/warranty/...2NhbGU9ZW5fdXM=

Also, Napa’s website has a much more detailed explanation of the warranty, but I think it’s a bit outdated because it starts at 60k & 6 months.

Anyways, if you “read between the lines” and deduce from what their lawyers and engineers created together (the warranty), the brand and quality of the oil filter are irrelevant. Same goes for air filter.

That warranty PDF from Napa’s website goes into detail about everything the consumer is supposed to do, mainly follow the manufacturer maintenance schedule. It gives a glimpse into their undisclosed expensive research.

Pennzoil says to change out the oil and filter (and do other maintenance like changing the air filter on time); there is no mention of oil filter and air filter brand. So, it appears going with the least expensive filter out there would be fine. They could have easily included language to specify what filter, but it appears their R & D has concluded any filter would be fine. That PDF is pretty thorough in all sorts of areas; not including such language is quite an admission.

Also, their research appears to also conclude that the wear and gunk build-up up until 75k (previously 60k) is reversible or at least such damage can be put on hold until 500k. And even then, they would want to have a mileage buffer, so starting after 75k would be just fine.

Any thoughts?

 

[Zee09]

It would be nice to know at what percentage of claims filed actually get paid.
I think that would answer most of the questions on why they may not care what filters you use.
I say this as I'm one here who has no faith in oil warranties. I see it as advertising only.

 

[ThugStyle]

From what I read, they may ask you for an oil sample and engine parts for them to determine what caused the damage. And the max was set at $5k. You have to jump through a lot of hoops, like keeping receipts. But if you follow the rules and they don’t pay, I think the negative press would not be worth it for them. Esp since it’s a giant company, and their research must show that their products are so good that giving such a warranty would not cost them money. I mean, when have you heard of an engine breaking down in normal driving conditions with regular maintenance. At that point, it was prob a defect from the manufacturer.

Yeah I think having to make a claim would almost never happen. So I’m not worried about the warranty.

I made this thread to see if others agree with me on “don’t worry about oil filter and air filter brand, any new one will do.”

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: ThugStyle
I made this thread to see if others agree with me on “don’t worry about oil filter and air filter brand, any new one will do.”

I see no mention of what type or brand of filter is required for the Pennzoil warranty coverage, so in this example it does not matter as long as the filter is changed as specified. Are you trying to extrapolate this specific warranty language into a global argument discussion of whether filtering efficiency is important? There are plenty of those discussions on this board already.

 

[ThugStyle]

I’m just wondering if anyone can make a case that debunks my reading of what Pennzoil said (or didn’t say). Based on their wording, Pennzoil itself is saying that “any filter would work just fine, even our conventional oil would have your engine last 300k with any filter. Just change it every time with the oil on time, and do all the regular maintenance like changing the air filter.”

So, it appears there is a baseline quality that every filter meets, and it’s a high enough baseline. So you don’t need a fancy one.

 

[JamesBond]

Originally Posted By: ThugStyle
I’m just wondering if anyone can make a case that debunks my reading of what Pennzoil said (or didn’t say). Based on their wording, Pennzoil itself is saying that “any filter would work just fine, even our conventional oil would have your engine last 300k with any filter. Just change it every time with the oil on time, and do all the regular maintenance like changing the air filter.”

So, it appears there is a baseline quality that every filter meets; you don’t need a fancy one.


Have you read of an instance where Pennzoil has paid out on this warranty?

They probably don't care what filters you use, how/where you drive, if you run it low on oil or anything else, because they never pay out.

 

[ThugStyle]

Originally Posted By: JamesBond
Originally Posted By: ThugStyle
I’m just wondering if anyone can make a case that debunks my reading of what Pennzoil said (or didn’t say). Based on their wording, Pennzoil itself is saying that “any filter would work just fine, even our conventional oil would have your engine last 300k with any filter. Just change it every time with the oil on time, and do all the regular maintenance like changing the air filter.”

So, it appears there is a baseline quality that every filter meets; you don’t need a fancy one.


Have you read of an instance where Pennzoil has paid out on this warranty?

They probably don't care what filters you use, how/where you drive, if you run it low on oil or anything else, because they never pay out.


Before asking that, ask: have you read of a case of someone needing to use the warranty?

 

[csandste]

Out of close to 40 cars. One engine died cause of overheating. One engine died at 110,000 miles because original oil change was at 30,000 miles. The other 38 gave up the ghost for other reasons. None were because of oil failure. If you stay brand loyal and change twice as often as you have to, it's a money maker to them.

 

[csandste]

Sorry, double posted.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: ThugStyle


Also, their research appears to also conclude that the wear and gunk build-up up until 75k (previously 60k) is reversible ....

..Any thoughts?


Gunk build up in an engine being reversible (I assume by oil, though I havn't read it) isn't particulary surprising.

Wear reversal would be a very, very good trick.

 

[goodtimes]

Marketing by people pushing numbers around. It's 10 years and 15 years as well as 300/500. So the idea is to get oil users hooked, they must buy Pennzoil, and pay out a few claims every year, if any. More profit.

 

[kschachn]

There is no indication that Pennzoil would not pay out IRT their warranty as long as you complied with the terms. No one here knows whether that has happened or not.

However it is very unlikely that if you actually did what they say there would ever be a legitimate claim under those terms. I've followed it pretty close in my Sienna (except with ExxonMobil products) and I'm close to 400K on my old 1MZ-FE without any wear issues I know about. I've used OEM (or Denso First Time Fit) filters for nearly every oil change, and OEM or Denso air filters.

 

[Rand]

From my research its a junk warranty that never pays out. They can always blame something else besides their oil.

OH our oil didnt fail your engine bearing failed.

or your lack of detailed receipts for 500000 miles.

 

[CT8]

How many people put 300,000 miles on their car? And when they do the oils and filters range from boutique oils and filters to quick lube oil and filters. Marketing works the fools up to a tizzy.

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted By: CT8
How many people put 300,000 miles on their car? And when they do the oils and filters range from boutique oils and filters to quick lube oil and filters. ...
I did, two times on the same engine. My brother did on two different cars---with at least one other one nearing 300,000 as well. More to the point, none of them ever had a single failure for which the quality of oil could be blamed. That was on numerous brands of sale oil, not including Pennzoil, as far as I can recall.

 

[goodtimes]

Actuaries do the risk reward studies. It's 10 years, the chances of using any rated oil, consistently changed, and having engine problems due to the oil is probably very close to zero in 10 years. Maybe zero. It's all about getting people to buy Pennzoil for 10 years straight.

 

[wdn]

You have a better chance to win the progressive slot machines jackpot in Vegas than collect on an oil company's mileage warranty for using their oil.

Heard them discussed for decades, in many forums not here, and never heard anyone chime in and say "My engine died and Shell/Valvoline/etc. bought me a new engine." Ever. I have heard plenty stories where car manufacturers denied an in-warranty on a serious engine failure, or kicked the can down the road until warranty expired.

On the other hand I have heard of third-party oil filter companies paying for repairs when one of their filters collapsed or otherwise failed due to a manufacturing defect.

 

[SirTanon]

Thugstyle - You're basing your conclusion off of just one data point, and what is effectively advertising at that: The Pennzoil "use only our oil" warranty. This lacks even a semblance of any kind of scientific methodology.

Ask yourself this: How many people actually own the same car from 0-75,000 miles all the way up through 300,000 or even 500,000 miles? Considering the average person drives only about 13,500 miles per year, and the average car owner only owns the same car for about 6 years, that means that the majority of car owners only put about 81,500 miles on a car before they get rid of it, at least on average.

Add to that the actual likelihood that a car is going to be run on the same oil every time, and that it will be Pennzoil.. and that during that time, the engine will actually fail.. and the numbers drop to minuscule figures.

Some data point you have there...

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: ThugStyle
I’m just wondering if anyone can make a case that debunks my reading of what Pennzoil said (or didn’t say). Based on their wording, Pennzoil itself is saying that “any filter would work just fine, even our conventional oil would have your engine last 300k with any filter. Just change it every time with the oil on time, and do all the regular maintenance like changing the air filter.”

So, it appears there is a baseline quality that every filter meets, and it’s a high enough baseline. So you don’t need a fancy one.


What's the warranty's definition of 'lasting to 300+K or 500+K miles'? That the engine still runs? That the engine doesn't burn more than X qts in Y miles? That the engine doesn't lose more that 10% of it's rated HP? That all the parts are still within factor dimensional specifications? That the compression is no more than 10% reduced from new specs?

It's been discussed many times that even a well worn engine will still run at 300+K miles. The real question is, how much less wear and how much better shape would it be in if better air and oil filters were used?

The oil companies who offer these 'oil warranties' don't have to worry too much about paying out a claim because of two main reasons: 1) If someone doesn't follow the requirements to the letter they can deny the claim, and 2) Not many people are going to keep their vehicle for 300K miles, let along 500K miles.

 

[Garak]

Remember, for the Pennzoil warranty, or any other oil company's warranty, they can control the brand and the interval (within limits). Being able to control the brand of every other maintenance item is another matter altogether.