"Spotlessness" isn't a metric for an engine running well for many hundreds of thousands of miles.
Filter pictures HPL 0W30 6,000 miles, 2002 Volvo XC70
- Thread starter Astro14
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I must say that "every 3000 miles" is one of the greatest marketing successes ever.
well said
It's an obsession however in the BITOG-verse...
You’ve drawn a completely incorrect conclusion from what I presented
The part you’re failing to consider is that I didn’t own the car for the first 90,000 miles. I did say that.
The fact is I used excellent oils from then until approximately 280,000 miles, but they didn’t clean what was left over from the initial five years of ownership.
Volvo of North America had a big problem back in 2001, where they specified the use of certain Castrol oils that met ACEA A1/B1, and at the same time, upped the drain interval to 7,500. Then 10,000.
But their dealers went out and got bulk Castrol Dino, 5W30, and used that oil for a longer drain. They sludged up thousands of engines.
Volvo had to publish special procedures on how to clean up the engines that suffered from the use of the wrong specification oil. Notice what they recommend for oil.
So, what you’re seeing here is not the result of long drain intervals, it is the early history of the car and the use of the wrong specification.
The carbon that I was getting in the filter, and the carbon that was darkening the HPL oil, so quickly, is the left over from that early failure to use the correct specification.
Here is a picture of the inside of a different engine, which went 10,000 miles on oil changes.
Oh, the horror…
View looking up from below. That’s the oil pick up in the center.
View under the valve cover same engine.
No, long drains don’t cause sludge or carbon.
The wrong oil for the task causes it.
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I took a look back through your post on the forum, and I guess I missed the fact that you had a 2001. I probably could’ve helped with some of your issues as I’ve seen the exact same thing.
Our 2002 by the way, runs perfectly. The transmission in particular, for those two years is the weak spot.
And, for the record, this engine runs flawlessly.
The compression is good, it starts quickly, idles smoothly, has plenty of power, gets the same gas mileage it always did.
So, at 295,000 miles, I see no reason why this engine should not run for at least another hundred. The weak link, as I mentioned above, for this chassis is the transmission. The 2001 and 2002 Volvo’s were known for very fragile transmissions.
The issue is in the valve body, and I pulled valve body for a rebuild on this car about 200,000 miles ago.
I shared my work with a Volvo forum many years ago, here:
So far, so good.
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100%.
The conclusion I drew wasn't based solely on your post. Your post was just another data point, so to say. An addition to a bunch of other opened engine pics, where premium oils were used at recommended intervals, yet varnish was heavily present. (I'll start bookmarking those from now on, as I can't remember the thread names or posters of those pictures.)
Even if that Volvo was heavily sludged up when you got it, I'd think that 200K miles of premium oils at your conservative (as considered by many) OCIs would do some more cleaning. Don't get me wrong - engine looks great for 295k miles, but with 2/3 of that being on premium oils - I lean towards the OCI being too long for the application, or another mechanical issue going on... maybe the PCV is in fact struggling... Some engines (like @tig1 has shown many times) don't mind the longer OCIs on basic M1 vanilla, while other engines seem to abuse even the true flagship oils. Again, that thought comes not from your post alone, but from many different engines posted here over the last year, where owners claim to have run the same oils you ran, but results were worse than one would expect.
I'm glad the HPL is performing the cleanup, hoping to see that engine clean, if you ever open it up again in the future.
@TiGeo ^^^This quoted engine is what I would consider spotless. An obsession? I'd rather call it the ultimate goal. I understand that not every engine is capable of staying that clean, as all engines range in true operating temperatures and duty cycles, which affects the varnish formation. I'm ok with some discoloration, but heavy deposits will affect the oil delivery to the crucial components. For the longest time it's been considered that using MB229.5/PorscheA40 oils is a cheat code at keeping ANY engine clean, but in the past year I see more and more confirmation of the opposite. Which leaves even less options on the table: splurge for HPL, or use what's widely available, but splurge on doing the OCIs more often.
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That's a very common mistake unfortunately.
Generally available oils, even good ones with Euro additive packages, are not formulated to clean. They are not designed to remove deposits laid down by other oils. There are a few exceptions, like M1 FS 0W-40, where Mobil has claimed some cleaning is possible, but it isn't going to be Mr. Clean in there removing all the deposits.
Once deposits are in place, it's extremely difficult to remove them without an aggressive solvent. Even the HPL oils, which have a considerable amount of base oil content with high solvency, are quite gentle in their cleaning ability, so if you have some serious laid-down material, it's going to take a long time to clean that up, and you may never get all of it, because some surfaces aren't exposed to oil flow, just mist.
What examples do we have of engines that have been exclusively run on 229.5/A40 oils that have deposits? This one clearly isn't, there's 90,000 miles of mystery oil, which the OP is inclined to believe is behind this mess and I tend to be in agreement.
That said, any oil used beyond its limits is going to fail to keep things clean. As we know, certain applications are much harder on oil than others. UOA's are of service here, I know both my HEMI's are MUCH harder on oil than @wwillson's Pentastars for example. And of course driving profile is another part of application that needs to be considered.
Sure, clean is always good but most higher mileage engines are likely similar looking inside and run just fine. I am a fan of the LM Engine Flush product used somewhat regularly to help prevent some of this in the first place but have been using HPL now for almost 2 years (no more LM flush at this point) and I'm sure my engine is very clean inside....100K/track use/beating and compression test showed excellent numbers yesterday indicating rings are in good shape/getting lubrication. Top end was spotless last year when I had some work done. Adding a pro-active flush product to the regimen is my recommendation if an oil like HPL isn't in the cards but the BITOG regulars poo poo it for no real reason "why use it if there isn't a problem"....then you see pics of engines that aren't clean inside....why let it get that way?
Yes, that’s what I take from this as well. 200,000 miles on 229.5 oils didn’t clean much. No carbon in the pleats, the oils stayed clean in service.
A switch to HPL and the oil darkened quickly and all this carbon was showing up in the filter. The HPL oil started cleaning where the others weren’t.
By the way, for @Graham Piccinini - the PCV system on this car is complex. Volvos of this vintage and their “flame trap” are a known maintenance issue. It’s over $400 in parts and six hours labor to replace it completely. In the case of three of my other Volvos, I dropped the sump to clean it at the same time that I did the PCV system because the critical part of the system is a cast passage in both the block and the sump with becomes plugged with carbon as well. The “atherosclerosis” to which I referred earlier. When the oil is separated from the vapor mixture, this passage is how it drains back. If the system plugs up there, oil consumption goes way up and the car begins to run poorly, as that oil puddles in the flame trap and gets sucked through the intake.
That entire PCV job has been done on this car, at about 180,000 miles, when a plugged flame trap caused camshaft seal failure. I thought I had done the sump the, but a check of records shows that I didn’t. 5 Volvos with the same engine, and they all start to look the same...
The subsequent use of 229.5 oil has kept it clean, verified with my bore scope during this sump cleaning.
So, no, this wasn’t a PCV problem.
PCV “atherosclerosis” on another Volvo (run on conventional oil for much of its life, the recommendation of a “mechanic”). It was still working correctly, the car used zero oil, but the problem was evident. That 2004 XC90 was cleaned, switched to HPL, and still has no consumption. The circled passage is the oil return from the flame trap. Working…but…
As an example of how Volvo dealers were doing oil changes in the early 2000s, here is a service record from the 2004 XC90. The car on which I took the “atherosclerosis” picture. I covered up the VIN and the owners name, but this is the 2004 XC90 in my signature.
Specified: 5W30 synthetic ACEA A1/B1
Used: Bulk 10w30
On a new car, under warranty. At the dealer. There isn’t a big enough face palm emoji for this… The dealerships were so clueless about specification, that they didn’t even try to hide it. They bought and used regular bulk Dino oil of the wrong viscosity, and the wrong specification, and put it in customers’ new cars.
Then ran it for extended intervals.
The use of bulk Dino at the dealer continued through 2011. When the owner took the car to a local European specialist, now that it was out of warranty, various bulk Dino was used again, and at one point, that “mechanic” recommended 15W40 because of the “older engine”.
Still generic bulk. Still the wrong specification. This engine suffered as the result of the wrong oil for, basically, its whole life. No wonder there was a ton of carbon in it. It was much worse than my wife’s V70XC.
But, as I said, it’s been cleaned up, and has zero consumption. This 2004 XC90 is now running on HPL Euro 0W30 and I will continue to monitor the filter on it, as well.
Specified: 5W30 synthetic ACEA A1/B1
Used: Bulk 10w30
On a new car, under warranty. At the dealer. There isn’t a big enough face palm emoji for this… The dealerships were so clueless about specification, that they didn’t even try to hide it. They bought and used regular bulk Dino oil of the wrong viscosity, and the wrong specification, and put it in customers’ new cars.
Then ran it for extended intervals.
The use of bulk Dino at the dealer continued through 2011. When the owner took the car to a local European specialist, now that it was out of warranty, various bulk Dino was used again, and at one point, that “mechanic” recommended 15W40 because of the “older engine”.
Still generic bulk. Still the wrong specification. This engine suffered as the result of the wrong oil for, basically, its whole life. No wonder there was a ton of carbon in it. It was much worse than my wife’s V70XC.
But, as I said, it’s been cleaned up, and has zero consumption. This 2004 XC90 is now running on HPL Euro 0W30 and I will continue to monitor the filter on it, as well.
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What oil was used in that engine Astro?Here is a picture of the inside of a different engine, which went 10,000 miles on oil changes.
That was the SL600 and the oil was dealership Mobil 1 0W40. MB229.5. Specified interval on that car is 10,000 miles. 10 quart sump.
Windshield Washer. Courtesy top off.
LOL. The perfectly running engine in question has almost 300k miles. So what will 3k oci solve again?
It's clean as a whistle & your SL600 oil drain interval equals 5,000 miles on a 5 quart sump.
Thanks!
We've exchanged notes over the years, especially about the flame trap. We are now a Volvo free household. Two Toyotas, one Honda and one Ford with a Mazda engine.
