Fill battery with water

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Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
My wife works with commercial floor cleaning equipment, powered by batteries... They are instructed to CHECK and TOP OFF the batteries to prevent them from failing prematurely.


NOOOOOO ERIC!! She WILL DIE!!!!!! DO NOT TOUCH A BATTERY! IT HAS GHOST DUST INSIDE OF IT THAT WILL STEAL YOUR SOUL!!!!!
ROFL!!!
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
My wife works with commercial floor cleaning equipment, powered by batteries... They are instructed to CHECK and TOP OFF the batteries to prevent them from failing prematurely.


In all seriousness though, we have a forklift at the office that is the same way. Has a big bank of batteries in it that you are supposed to check the electrolyte on every few operating cycles and top up as needed using distilled water.


heavy equipment is a different story we are talking about car!! a lot of heavy equipment uses maintenance batteries.

I have an ac delco an ever start and an autocraft. they all say not to open. so that's 3 out of 3 in my household.
there are some batteries that you can add to but its hardly necessary in normal automotive use.
 
Originally Posted By: ram_man
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
My wife works with commercial floor cleaning equipment, powered by batteries... They are instructed to CHECK and TOP OFF the batteries to prevent them from failing prematurely.


In all seriousness though, we have a forklift at the office that is the same way. Has a big bank of batteries in it that you are supposed to check the electrolyte on every few operating cycles and top up as needed using distilled water.


heavy equipment is a different story we are talking about car!! a lot of heavy equipment uses maintenance batteries.

I have an ac delco an ever start and an autocraft. they all say not to open. so that's 3 out of 3 in my household.
there are some batteries that you can add to but its hardly necessary in normal automotive use.


What makes it a different story? You didn't answer my question. What is the DIFFERENCE that makes the "maintenance free" batteries that ARE able to have the caps removed so different from maintainable batteries?

Not much is the answer.

All this voodoo and fear mongering is to keep you guys away from touching batteries and to just replace them. That's the entire idea of maintenance free batteries, just like lifetime fluids on a car.

BTW, I have an Exide NASCAR select in the Expedition with removable caps. I can also remove the covers on the Exide I have in my M5. Though it has a funky venting arrangement that vents outside the trunk (as does the 328i).

The last line of your post above, I am finally starting to see some light shining through here. Yes, there are "Maintenance free" batteries that are maintainable. But doing so is usually only necessary under extreme operating conditions. It doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done though, which was what you had posted originally.
 
Maintenance-free generally means that you don't have to add water to the battery. However, a battery exposed to severe overcharged conditions will gas and use water, resulting in premature battery failure. In addition, it is always a good idea to visually inspect your battery for corrosion. Using battery anti-corrosion treatment is always a good idea for best performance. It is also important to remember that your battery is part of the electrical system. When inspecting your battery you should check related components. Replace if necessary.


also there are some batteries that have removable caps maintenance batteries do. or low maintenance batteries.
maintenance free however shouldn't be messed with. a lot of people will take a screw driver to pop the top off and on some batteries that breaks a seal and damages the vent and will cause more gas to escape. I do believe the majority of people shouldn't do it. most people do not understand batteries well enough to do it. I feel similarly about brakes to. a lot of people can change drum brakes but cannot explain what each piece does. if you cannot explain each part you shouldn't mess with it.

btw where I live we don't see many exide batteries I haven't seen one in a very long time.

also I didn't see that you put agm they are different than gel though do behave similarly. I'm not that all but most optima batteries shouldn't be fast charged and jump starting is frowned upon.
 
ram_man...give it up.

Whoever mentioned that lawyers are influencing what you're being taught, nailed it. Sadly, these days legal liabilities trump everything. Somewhere a kid like yourself got hurt working on a battery and the automotive school he went to got sued and lost, as well as the textbook company. So, now the insurance companies that sell policies to automotive schools and automotive textbook manufacturers demand that the instructors and textbooks make it clear that batteries are not to be tampered with. That way when it happens again, to someone else, they have their rear axle covered.

Welcome to the real world.
 
Originally Posted By: ram_man


Maintenance-free generally means that you don't have to add water to the battery.


Yes, however operated under extreme heat, they MAY need water. And some of the batteries advertised as maintenance free allow you to check, and if necessary, add electrolyte.

Quote:
However, a battery exposed to severe overcharged conditions will gas and use water, resulting in premature battery failure.


Yes, but that's not the condition JHZR2, Garak or myself were describing.

Quote:
In addition, it is always a good idea to visually inspect your battery for corrosion. Using battery anti-corrosion treatment is always a good idea for best performance. It is also important to remember that your battery is part of the electrical system. When inspecting your battery you should check related components. Replace if necessary.


You sound like you are quoting a textbook here
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also there are some batteries that have removable caps maintenance batteries do. or low maintenance batteries.
maintenance free however shouldn't be messed with.


Here we are back to the absolutes again. ARG. WHY shouldn't they be messed with?

Quote:
a lot of people will take a screw driver to pop the top off and on some batteries that breaks a seal and damages the vent and will cause more gas to escape.


Only if they are an idiot. A battery with removable caps will have the caps easily removable. If they don't easily come off, they probably aren't meant to come off. This isn't rocket science.....

Quote:
I do believe the majority of people shouldn't do it. most people do not understand batteries well enough to do it.


That argument makes no sense. There are all kinds of people out there every day checking electrolyte on maintainable or low maintenance batteries. Even people checking them on "Maintenance free" batteries. This isn't a complicated topic. Pulling a cap and checking the fluid level and topping it up with distilled water isn't a difficult process. In fact when I buy a new 4-wheeler battery I have to add the electrolyte to the EMPTY battery myself! Exide trusts ANYBODY to do this and gives some pretty basic instructions on the process. Why do you feel this is such a complicated thing?

Quote:
I feel similarly about brakes to. a lot of people can change drum brakes but cannot explain what each piece does. if you cannot explain each part you shouldn't mess with it.


Brakes are a serious safety item. If they don't work right, you may cause an accident and possibly death. That's a bit different from removing a cap and visually inspecting the fluid level in a few holes.

Quote:
btw where I live we don't see many exide batteries I haven't seen one in a very long time.


That somehow doesn't surprise me......

Quote:
also I didn't see that you put agm they are different than gel though do behave similarly. I'm not that all but most optima batteries shouldn't be fast charged and jump starting is frowned upon.


I put AGM in there because Optima batteries are AGM......

And with respect to your behaviour comment... they don't behave similarly at all.

http://www.optimabatteries.com/us/en/technology/agm-batteries/

Originally Posted By: Optima
the ability to recharge much faster


Where are you getting this completely wrong information from?
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Yes, however operated under extreme heat, they MAY need water. And some of the batteries advertised as maintenance free allow you to check, and if necessary, add electrolyte.

You want to hear some real blasphemy? Many years ago, particularly when batteries were a little more "iffy" than they are now and when chargers weren't as elaborate as they are today, my dad occasionally reconditioned a battery manually. He'd drain all the electrolyte from a battery, flush it many times, and dump in brand new electrolyte.

The lawyers these days would have a heart attack if they new a DIYer was doing such a thing. Now, there isn't a lot of need for such things, but that doesn't mean such a thing couldn't be done.

Sure, I prefer to not mess around with a battery if I can avoid it. If I have to, though, I certainly will top it up.
 
Originally Posted By: ram_man


Maintenance-free generally means that you don't have to add water to the battery. However, a battery exposed to severe overcharged conditions will gas and use water, resulting in premature battery failure. In addition, it is always a good idea to visually inspect your battery for corrosion. Using battery anti-corrosion treatment is always a good idea for best performance. It is also important to remember that your battery is part of the electrical system. When inspecting your battery you should check related components. Replace if necessary.


also there are some batteries that have removable caps maintenance batteries do. or low maintenance batteries.
maintenance free however shouldn't be messed with. a lot of people will take a screw driver to pop the top off and on some batteries that breaks a seal and damages the vent and will cause more gas to escape. I do believe the majority of people shouldn't do it. most people do not understand batteries well enough to do it. I feel similarly about brakes to. a lot of people can change drum brakes but cannot explain what each piece does. if you cannot explain each part you shouldn't mess with it.

btw where I live we don't see many exide batteries I haven't seen one in a very long time.

also I didn't see that you put agm they are different than gel though do behave similarly. I'm not that all but most optima batteries shouldn't be fast charged and jump starting is frowned upon.


Do you know why they (maintenance free batteries) dont need water?

Even AC Delco says that their professional battery is "virtually" maintenance free. http://www.acdelco.com/parts/batteries/

VRLA has a valve set to a specific release pressure, and wicked electrolyte, these really are maintenance free, as you cannot break the seal nor can you really re-wick electrolyte.

Flooded batteries can all be maintained. The addition of excess electrolyte compensates for loss, and calcium or selenium-rich lead acid batteries offer reduced gassing under use and float, as compared older antimony type strengthened lead grids. Perhaps vent caps versus threaded caps hold pressure differently, but the name of the game always is RECOMBINATION. Some batteries even have a catalyst inside to help it. VRLA is the best in this respect, as the seals really maintain all H and O to recombine naturally.

Gel and VRLA are quite different in terms of build design and capabilities, this includes charge and float voltages.

You do realize that lead acid batteries ALL gas, right? Based upon Gibbs free energy, the electrolysis voltage is around 1.5V practically speaking. To get any real amount of electrolysis though, somewhere around 2.4V/cell is necessary.

Creating a long diffusion path and reasonably sealed caps will allow most of the gas to recombine at reasonable charge rates - alternators dont typically fast charge or fully charge batteries. Of course the only way to prevent loss is a really sealed battery, but the "maintenance free" batteries do well enough because practically speaking, the gasses dont leave fast enough with the little pressure, given headspace in the battery.

Short circuiting or rapidly overcharging a vrla/gel cell can blow the vent, which is not resettable (AFAIK), and then will result in more rapid dryout. These cells donthold excess electrolyte, in fact, they hold a lot less, so that's why they dont want careless folks jumping them or doing other stuff.

ram_man, it is REALLY great that youre learning, and sharing the insight that youre pulling from your classes, but it is important to discern practicality from what is taught, and also why certain things are taught certain ways. Its a good discussion overall, and Im glad we are having these.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Yes, however operated under extreme heat, they MAY need water. And some of the batteries advertised as maintenance free allow you to check, and if necessary, add electrolyte.

You want to hear some real blasphemy? Many years ago, particularly when batteries were a little more "iffy" than they are now and when chargers weren't as elaborate as they are today, my dad occasionally reconditioned a battery manually. He'd drain all the electrolyte from a battery, flush it many times, and dump in brand new electrolyte.

The lawyers these days would have a heart attack if they new a DIYer was doing such a thing. Now, there isn't a lot of need for such things, but that doesn't mean such a thing couldn't be done.

Sure, I prefer to not mess around with a battery if I can avoid it. If I have to, though, I certainly will top it up.


Yup, there used to be a time when batteries were shipped dry and the seller had to fill them. In '96/'97 when I was 17/18, I worked at a farm store. We stocked some 8v batteries that were dry and needed to be filled at sale. If I remember, the acid came from a wine in a box looking container. All that was required were rubber gloves and goggles. I can't begin to imagine the hoops an employee would have to jump through now to fill a battery.
 
Originally Posted By: ram_man
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
My wife works with commercial floor cleaning equipment, powered by batteries... They are instructed to CHECK and TOP OFF the batteries to prevent them from failing prematurely.


In all seriousness though, we have a forklift at the office that is the same way. Has a big bank of batteries in it that you are supposed to check the electrolyte on every few operating cycles and top up as needed using distilled water.


heavy equipment is a different story we are talking about car!! a lot of heavy equipment uses maintenance batteries.

I have an ac delco an ever start and an autocraft. they all say not to open. so that's 3 out of 3 in my household.
there are some batteries that you can add to but its hardly necessary in normal automotive use.


Tis still a battery and being a battery, it still has basic maintenance needs.
 
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Yup, there used to be a time when batteries were shipped dry and the seller had to fill them.

I believe I still have an old box marked electrolyte laying around in my shed somewhere. I believe it is the case lot box that held these "wine in a box" things of electrolyte.
 
Originally Posted By: ram_man


Maintenance-free generally means that you don't have to add water to the battery. However, a battery exposed to severe overcharged conditions will gas and use water, resulting in premature battery failure. In addition, it is always a good idea to visually inspect your battery for corrosion. Using battery anti-corrosion treatment is always a good idea for best performance. It is also important to remember that your battery is part of the electrical system. When inspecting your battery you should check related components. Replace if necessary.


also there are some batteries that have removable caps maintenance batteries do. or low maintenance batteries.
maintenance free however shouldn't be messed with. a lot of people will take a screw driver to pop the top off and on some batteries that breaks a seal and damages the vent and will cause more gas to escape. I do believe the majority of people shouldn't do it. most people do not understand batteries well enough to do it. I feel similarly about brakes to. a lot of people can change drum brakes but cannot explain what each piece does. if you cannot explain each part you shouldn't mess with it.

btw where I live we don't see many exide batteries I haven't seen one in a very long time.

also I didn't see that you put agm they are different than gel though do behave similarly. I'm not that all but most optima batteries shouldn't be fast charged and jump starting is frowned upon.


Some wise guy in the past said, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

You have "a little knowledge" about batteries.

Some other wise guy said, "You don't know what you don't know."

Since you do not have a broad base of experience yet, you are simply unaware of all the possibilities, nuances, variations, exceptions, etc. that are out in the real world. By sticking to one very narrow stance in this thread you are just showing your lack of knowledge.

You will probably have to learn the one "right" answer to pass the tests while you are in school, but you should open your mind to the other possible correct answers that you will encounter outside the classroom.

Learning should provide you with the mental tools to open your mind to acquisition of new knowledge, not provide you with an excuse to close your mind to alternative ideas.

Just my $0.02.

34.gif
 
Originally Posted By: gaijinnv
Some wise guy in the past said, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

You have "a little knowledge" about batteries.

Some other wise guy said, "You don't know what you don't know."

Since you do not have a broad base of experience yet, you are simply unaware of all the possibilities, nuances, variations, exceptions, etc. that are out in the real world. By sticking to one very narrow stance in this thread you are just showing your lack of knowledge.

You will probably have to learn the one "right" answer to pass the tests while you are in school, but you should open your mind to the other possible correct answers that you will encounter outside the classroom.

Learning should provide you with the mental tools to open your mind to acquisition of new knowledge, not provide you with an excuse to close your mind to alternative ideas.

Just my $0.02.

34.gif


Well stated.
 
You guys are assuming I do not know what I am talking about . I'm not going to say I know everything but my dad had his eye blown out when I was very young by a battery and we have stacks and stacks of paper work from batt manufacturers and tons of information that most people do not know anything about. Also in class yes we have learned some about batteries. Today's batteries in most cars need not be messed with . And to the people who say I check my water levels and my battery lasted x amount of years . My neighbor had an interstate battery last 11 yrs never screwed with it. My sister fiancé lasted 9yrs moms fiancé battery is going on. 7yrs so this logic behind checking a maintenance free battery regularly isn't proven to lengthen the life of it. Sure in a severe condition maybe it's necessary but I'm a daily driven car it isn't needed.

Also overkill you are assuming people have the mental capacity to do so. Sure you do plenty on here do but your typical car owner doesn't know how to do it and won't do it and their batteries last just fine. If it was necessary dealers would be charging people to constantly do it. My moms car goes to a dealer for service never once have they mentioned doing it, ford doesn't even have a maintenance interval or anything regarding it. Why? Because it's maintenance free.

Bitogers in general think we know better than the engineers and manufacturers. Very seldom is that actually the case though. The mass majority of batteries today are maintenance free in a car and do not need to be messed with under normal circumstances. And have you noticed a few of you have taken slight jabs at me but provided very little evidence? I noticed it. Instead of saying I have a lack of knowledge maybe you should prove to me that the majority of batteries need to be checked. Not somehow can be but actually need to be. It simply isn't the case.
And I'm talking small equipment or large equipment batteries I am talking about passenger car batteries.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Yup, there used to be a time when batteries were shipped dry and the seller had to fill them.

I believe I still have an old box marked electrolyte laying around in my shed somewhere. I believe it is the case lot box that held these "wine in a box" things of electrolyte.


This used to be the case. Batteries have changed since then and people have become more lazy and ignorant so they made it where you didn't have to do that anymore.
 
Originally Posted By: ram_man


You guys are assuming I do not know what I am talking about . I'm not going to say I know everything but my dad had his eye blown out when I was very young by a battery and we have stacks and stacks of paper work from batt manufacturers and tons of information that most people do not know anything about. Also in class yes we have learned some about batteries. Today's batteries in most cars need not be messed with . And to the people who say I check my water levels and my battery lasted x amount of years . My neighbor had an interstate battery last 11 yrs never screwed with it. My sister fiancé lasted 9yrs moms fiancé battery is going on. 7yrs so this logic behind checking a maintenance free battery regularly isn't proven to lengthen the life of it. Sure in a severe condition maybe it's necessary but I'm a daily driven car it isn't needed.

Also overkill you are assuming people have the mental capacity to do so. Sure you do plenty on here do but your typical car owner doesn't know how to do it and won't do it and their batteries last just fine. If it was necessary dealers would be charging people to constantly do it. My moms car goes to a dealer for service never once have they mentioned doing it, ford doesn't even have a maintenance interval or anything regarding it. Why? Because it's maintenance free.

Bitogers in general think we know better than the engineers and manufacturers. Very seldom is that actually the case though. The mass majority of batteries today are maintenance free in a car and do not need to be messed with under normal circumstances. And have you noticed a few of you have taken slight jabs at me but provided very little evidence? I noticed it. Instead of saying I have a lack of knowledge maybe you should prove to me that the majority of batteries need to be checked. Not somehow can be but actually need to be. It simply isn't the case.
And I'm talking small equipment or large equipment batteries I am talking about passenger car batteries.


You appear to have missed the train.....

Nobody is saying that a maintenance free battery NEEDS to be checked under normal service. But many of them CAN be checked and when operated under severe heat, it may be prudent, if the batteries allows, to do that! That's all that's being argued here! Where did you get the idea that anybody was arguing that they NEEDED to be checked? Nobody has said that. Though I might add that this is typical of our discussions in the past when you were a little less calm and operating under a different alias
wink.gif


Your initial statement didn't allow for the leeway you've now given, which is simply the acknowledgement that "Maintenance Free" doesn't mean that the battery cannot and should not, under any circumstances, be messed with. Which is what you had originally stated.

Common ground isn't all that hard to find here. Nobody is saying people should be regularly checking the levels in their maintenance free batteries. What has been stated, and for the sake of clarity, I will re-state it, is that many maintenance free batteries allow for the electrolyte levels to be checked. If somebody is mechanically inclined and wishes to check the levels on these batteries, there is nothing wrong with that and various manufacturers encourage it, especially when operated under extreme heat where loss of electrolyte may occur.

There are batteries that are sealed, and thus cannot be checked. And that's fine. Nobody is encouraging anybody to attempt to crack those puppies open. However the OP's battery was not of that variety and the level COULD be easily checked. Even though the result of that endeavour was that the fluid level was fine and he simply left it alone.

This is your initial statement in this thread:

Originally Posted By: ram_man
ok tons of bad advice here. that battery appears to be a maintenance free! you do not add to those when they are done they are done. where you were prying on those (caps) are actually vents and if you pried them off you effectively screwed it up. GET A NEW BATTERY!
if you want to see if the battery will accept a charge do a 3 minute quick charge. the battery should go below 15.5 volts if it is good above that and its sulfated. however prying off those vent caps is a bad thing!


And it is wrong. It is wrong because it is an absolute statement with respect to this type of battery and one cannot be made because there are several varieties of battery that fall under this classification, many of which are designed to allow the electrolyte levels to be checked and many that aren't. You've now acknowledged that for the most part so we can move on.
 
Originally Posted By: ram_man
I'm not going to say I know everything but my dad had his eye blown out when I was very young by a battery


WOW! How did that happen? Nevermind, if you don't want to talk about it. Was this a maintenance free battery that he tried to pry open? That's a pretty big deal.
 
My business deals with batteries. I change out batteries everyday.

Where I am, some batteries are maintenance-type where "everyone knows" to take off the cap and add water when required. There are clearly marked lines on the casing, min and max.

But not "everyone knows". There are people who even blame the dealership where they went for their servicing for not informing them to check and add water. So these batteries dry up and died.

The other type of maintenance-free batteries does not come with electrolyte level marking.
It is not expected for anyone to try and add water.

Depending on the manufacturers,
- some had the fill valves completely sealed and glued tight with another covering.
- some has plastic coverings which you can pry open easily.
- some has screw down valve which is flushed with the top.
The last one from a supplier told me they put a label on top of it, bcuz they keep getting questions from end-users whether they need to add water, but obviously it is not expected.

Of all the maintenance-free batteries I recovered, that died and are not usable, none of them I found had low electrolyte level.
 
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