Few questions from a noob.

[Heisenberg]

I just bought a used 99 Toyota Avalon. I previously had a Lexus in which the engine went. I had gone around 10,000 miles without an oil change. I am now starting to take maintenance seriously. Which is why I am here.

Both the Toyota I just bought, and the Lexus before it, were known to have sludge issues. As a lot of cars do. But I get the impression this is largely due to poor maintenance. So I am buying this Avalon and it only has 89,000 miles on it. I got the carfax on it and it appears to have had regular oil changes. But I am still paranoid about sludge. I really would have liked to have taken the valve covers off before I bought it but it really wasn't practical.

So what does somebody like myself who is paranoid about sludge do? I did some searching around here and thinking about using this amsoil engine flush:

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/flsh.aspx

and then changing it with synthetic oil. Does this sound reasonable?

Which leads me to my next question: Where is a good place to get your oil changed? Pep Boys? Valvoline? Pep Boys seems to have a larger selection of oils. They also have an engine flush that they say is good for sludge, but I have heard these engine flushes are mainly scams. Would this flush be worth it? And what oil in particular should I use if I'm worried about sludge? Pennzoil seems to advertise sludge cleaning on a lot of their oils. Any suggestions?

Thanks for any help.

 

[Lead Shoes]

10k oci on an unknown bulk oil

I recommend nothing but changing the oil yourself, it can be done in any driveway. I would look down the oil hole and see if it is sludged up before you put in amsoil flush, if it loosens up too much stuff it can clog up small oil return passages or your oil pickup screen (engine death again).

You have a lot to learn, good to see you are trying to learn from your mistakes.

 

[EricF]

well... I wouldn't waste money on an engine flush because the flush solution is usually kerosene which will/can damage seals.

Personally, I would switch to a high quality filter such as Purolator or Wix, AND switch to a synthetic oil.
Mobil 1 or Pennzoil Platnum is very highly regarded here.
I personally use Mobil 1 5w30 on my sister in law's 98 Avalon. There is no sludge issue so far with 109k. The oil is left in use for average of 9500 miles using a Wix filter. I cracked the valve cover around probably 60k and it was clean. I know any synthetic would have been sufficient, but I preferred Mobil 1 due to its availability to me at the time. this motor has only seen Mobil 1 and probably always will.
using a conventional oil, may or may not have caused sludge, however, the oil would have to have been changed more frequently.
I am definetly saving her money by using the Mobil 1, and at 9600 miles on the last OCI, only a half a quart of oil was used.

IF you choose to go with a synthetic, I recommend changing the filter around 1000 miles and leave the oil in place.
around 4000 miles I would change the oil and filter again, and let the longevity of a synthetic take over.
No need for any flushes or upsells from whomever.

I would goto Pepboys if anything, you can choose the oil you want and watch them put it in your engine.

 

[Heisenberg]

Originally Posted By: Brenden
10k oci on an unknown bulk oil

I recommend nothing but changing the oil yourself, it can be done in any driveway. I would look down the oil hole and see if it is sludged up before you put in amsoil flush, if it loosens up too much stuff it can clog your oil returns or your oil pickup screen.

You have a lot to learn, good to see you are trying to learn from your mistakes.


Thanks. I would change the oil but there are 2 feet of snow on the ground and it is 10 degrees out.

Looking in the oil cap brings up another problem. It looks like this:

Which I am told is coked oil. Is there a way to clean it?

 

[Clevy]

Use a can of seafoam with every oil change. Use pup and change at 4000 miles. Do it twice and then inspect. If still sludges up do it again.
Seafoam works slower than a flush but it works.

 

[Lead Shoes]

You should really take one valve cover off and get a picture so we can see what its like inside.

 

[Heisenberg]

Originally Posted By: EricF
well... I wouldn't waste money on an engine flush because the flush solution is usually kerosene which will/can damage seals.

Personally, I would switch to a high quality filter such as Purolator or Wix, AND switch to a synthetic oil.
Mobil 1 or Pennzoil Platnum is very highly regarded here.
I personally use Mobil 1 5w30 on my sister in law's 98 Avalon. There is no sludge issue so far with 109k. The oil is left in use for average of 9500 miles using a Wix filter. I cracked the valve cover around probably 60k and it was clean. I know any synthetic would have been sufficient, but I preferred Mobil 1 due to its availability to me at the time. this motor has only seen Mobil 1 and probably always will.
using a conventional oil, may or may not have caused sludge, however, the oil would have to have been changed more frequently.
I am definetly saving her money by using the Mobil 1, and at 9600 miles on the last OCI, only a half a quart of oil was used.

IF you choose to go with a synthetic, I recommend changing the filter around 1000 miles and leave the oil in place.
around 4000 miles I would change the oil and filter again, and let the longevity of a synthetic take over.
No need for any flushes or upsells from whomever.

I would goto Pepboys if anything, you can choose the oil you want and watch them put it in your engine.


Thanks. So you're saying no to both the Amsoil engine flush and the flush they do at pep boys?

And either Mobil 1 or the Pennzoil will do a good job of cleaning/preventing sludge? I think I might go with Pennzoil platinum at pep boys.

And a question on opening the valve cover. Did you do just the front one? How difficult was it? I heard you should change the gasket when doing it. I am not mechanically inclined so I'm not sure if I trust myself to open it.

 

[Lead Shoes]

I have used amsoil engine flush before and plan to again, cut a lot of deposits and some varnish out of my head when I ran it through in the summer.

edit: Coked deposits are harder to get rid of, after 1 amsoil flush and a half quart of MMO in my oil each change in the last 10k they have defiantly cleaned up the coking in my Honda's head.

 

[zyxelenator]

Originally Posted By: Heisenberg
Originally Posted By: Brenden
10k oci on an unknown bulk oil

I recommend nothing but changing the oil yourself, it can be done in any driveway. I would look down the oil hole and see if it is sludged up before you put in amsoil flush, if it loosens up too much stuff it can clog your oil returns or your oil pickup screen.

You have a lot to learn, good to see you are trying to learn from your mistakes.


Thanks. I would change the oil but there are 2 feet of snow on the ground and it is 10 degrees out.

Looking in the oil cap brings up another problem. It looks like this:

Which I am told is coked oil. Is there a way to clean it?
It is oil baffle screen,It is dirty like that on most cars.

 

[zyxelenator]

Most likely You have sludge. Remove front valve cover to confirm. I have same engine. Search my threads(click on name, view user profile, user posts, "then topics created").
MMO and Kreen are you friends now.
You can safely go 3000 miles on Dino oil, 4000-4500 miles on blend, 5000+ on synthetic, but not 10k. I'll do UOA to see how G-oil synthetic performed.
First thing to do- change your PCV valve, get valve from dealer.

 

[zyxelenator]

Do 2 runs(3k miles) with MMO, then 2 runs with Kreen. Change filters at 1500 miles point. Remove cover and check again. While cover removed clean all you can by hands. You might want to use 10w-40 oil instead of 5w-30, both Kreen and MMO dilute oil.Then use Pennzoil Ultra or Platinum oil with MMO top off (up to 1 qt) when needed and you should be fine.
Also MMO and or Kreen Piston soak improves oil consumption dramatically. And yes, it is possible to remove back spark plugs without removing intake manifold.

 

[Heisenberg]

Originally Posted By: zyxelenator
Most likely You have sludge. Remove front valve cover to confirm. I have same engine. Search my threads(click on name, view user profile, user posts, "then topics created").
MMO and Kreen are you friends now.
You can safely go 3000 miles on Dino oil, 4000-4500 miles on blend, 5000+ on synthetic, but not 10k. I'll do UOA to see how G-oil synthetic performed.
First thing to do- change your PCV valve, get valve from dealer.


You're pretty sure I have sludge? How bad? I was thinking of MMO. I should just have the mechanic add it at oil change?

And how difficult is it to pull a valve cover on this thing? I'm not very mechanically inclined..

I also have a general question about the mechanism of an engine in general. Does most of the oil sit in the oil pan when the car is off? How does it circulate? Do oil changes with dino oil actually remove sludge, or at least some of it? Seems like a lot would still stick to parts. I'm just wondering how much sludge is removed when oil is drained.

 

[zyxelenator]

Problem in those engines is ventilation system. I gets clogged easily and starts to build sludge deposits in top engine part.
Here some pictures: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/kreen-in-3-0l-camry.155868/

 

[zyxelenator]

Originally Posted By: Heisenberg


You're pretty sure I have sludge?
How bad? I was thinking of MMO. I should just have the mechanic add it at oil change?

And how difficult is it to pull a valve cover on this thing? I'm not very mechanically inclined..

I also have a general question about the mechanism of an engine in general. Does most of the oil sit in the oil pan when the car is off? How does it circulate? Do oil changes with dino oil actually remove sludge, or at least some of it? Seems like a lot would still stick to parts. I'm just wondering how much sludge is removed when oil is drained.
To remove cover, you need to remove some plastic, 3 spark plugs, hose and about 12 bolts. Nothing to hard.
Yes, most oil drains down to oil pan. Oil pump pumps it thru engines, then filter, then it comes back to oil pan.
Yes, all oils fight sludge, they have different detergents,but they deplete over time and oil is not cleaning anymore.
If you can bring you oil to mechanic( you can in most times) I would use Pennzoil oil Dino and Synthetic, they save lots of cleaning additives and easily available at any Walmart.

 

[NYSteve]

You and Eddie25 should meet up!

 

[Gokhan]

Well, Heisenberg, the most important thing to realize about sludge is that it only forms when the oil deteriorates.

This means that shorter OCI (oil-change interval) = less sludge, regardless of what kind of oil used.

The deterioration of the oil that leads to sludge basically depends on how fast the oil cooks, which is in turn mostly determined by its NOACK volatility. Synthetic oils will have lower NOACK volatility and they will cook slower as a result, leading to longer OCIs without sludge. Also, Group IV (PAO) synthetic oils like Mobil 1, Amsoil, etc. have even lower NOACK and therefore provide better sludge protection than Group III synthetics.

Last but not least, note that the OCI is not solely determined by how fast an oil cooks. An equally important factor is the TBN (total base number). TBN needs to stay more than 2 or 3 or so, in order for the oil to be able to neutralize the acids formed during the combustion. If the TBN falls below 1 or 2, engine wear will start increasing exponentially due to increased corrosion. It's also very important to realize that TBN has nothing to do with the oil being synthetic or conventional -- the detergents (bases) that provide the TBN protection wear out with the same rate in any kind of oil, but better and/or more detergent additives can provide higher TBN and longer TBN retention over the OCI.

 

[Turk]

Heisenberg,

Welcome!

You're going to get A LOT of different opinions here and that's overall good.

Listen to the guys here, we'll help.

1st up: Take out the old PCV Valve and put in a new OEM one. That'll help mitigate much more sludge occurring.

I have used Amsoil Engine Flush with excellent results & have also used Seafoam, Kreen (harder to get but super good) & Marvel Mystery Oil (works slower). So YES, use one of these products.

After this above, do the oil & filter change and put in any of the top quality cleaning oils, Penn. Platinum, Penn. Ultra, Amsoil and don't go too long on the next change.

Best of luck!

 

[Cristobal]

I would make sure the PCV valve is in order, if not, change it.

Then just change the oil at short intervals (2500 miles or less) with Pennzoil Yellow Bottle and cheap filters; here the Fram Orange Can would be useful, as it is OK for short changes and it's cheap. Purpose: to catch any dislodged sludge. Change the filter every time.

I bet that after 10,000 miles the sludge will be gone.

Once it is gone or seems to be, then you can go to longer intervals, different oil & filter, etc.

 

[Turk]

Originally Posted By: Cristobal
I would make sure the PCV valve is in order, if not, change it.

Then just change the oil at short intervals (2500 miles or less) with Pennzoil Yellow Bottle and cheap filters; here the Fram Orange Can would be useful, as it is OK for short changes and it's cheap. Purpose: to catch any dislodged sludge. Change the filter every time.

I bet that after 10,000 miles the sludge will be gone.

Once it is gone or seems to be, then you can go to longer intervals, different oil & filter, etc.



Please, stay away from the Fram Orange Can....................

Use a quality filter that will catch lots of crud, not some cardboard end poorest filtering filter on the market.

 

[Cristobal]

That's why I said short OCI intervals. In a situation like this the Orange Can would do.

I think better filters are best for longer intervals, but that is not what is the situation here. This is just a short-term solution I propose for a sludge problem. This is not a pro or anti-OCD proposal. This is just a solution I proposed to a short term issue, and the OCOD is a short-OCI filter. It is cheap and a lot better than an E-core. It is no Pure One, but that is not the issue here.

I suppose one could use the very best filters, but that is like buying a new Cadillac to haul trash to the dump with. It is a waste of money. If one is going to go as far as that, tearing down the engine to manually remove the sludge is the thing to do and that is expensive.

The oil and filter should be changed at short intervals; PYB will probably take care of the sludge. Once that is done, it's done.