Ferrari 348

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Flat tappet engines only require high ZDDP during break-in. There is no evidence they need it after that.

Ferrari dosen't have a different spec for older cars, does it? I know the "Ferrari spec" isn't a spec as such, only certain approved oils. But like Longlife-01 Isn't it back-specified to all models as was BMW "Special Oils" and Longlife-98?

As to the foaming, if that is a problem (and I don't know if it is) then I'd ask Ferrari about it. There's no way Helix is a "bad" oil that is the cause of the foaming. Helix is one of the finest motor oils on the planet.
 
Welcome. That engine has cam-over-bucket valvetrain (not flat tappets in the U.S. V8-sense). Much less loading on the bucket and not prone to the issues of pushrod V8 flat tappets, and therefore high ZDDP oil is not needed.

You're on the right track with SHU 5W-40. I would run any 5W-40 with an A3/B4 specification and the following approvals: BMW LL-01, Mercedes 229.5, Porsche A40. Those approvals guarantee quality, as the tests are very stringent. There should be a few oils in your area to chose from.
 
Is that a timing belt on that Ferrari engine? Very cool to see one. Sorry I should not recommend oil for a Ferrari as I don't know much about them.
Thanks for the pictures
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by Bailes1992
I would stick with the Shell Helix Ultra 5w40. It's currently the only oil approved by Ferrarri. It's a GTL Group 3 base so a cut above other Group 3 base stocks. You don't need 1000ppm+ of ZDDP for a flat tappet cam, only for breaking in.

This oil is a good one and would work. Modern oils don't require very high levels of ZDDP, as they have other AW/EP/FM additives that reduce wear.



I am not a fan but if Mobil 1 0W40 is another option. Although I would just use the Shell Helix.
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by OilUzer
Originally Posted by Gokhan
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There is no such thing as ester-based oil. They only use a small amount of ester to increase the oxidation and cleaning properties. Esters are also probably not good for flat tappets, as they compete with ZDDP and moly films and potentially increase wear.

Any regular synthetic 5W-40 is fine. You can also use a synthetic HDEO like Rotella 5W-40 if you want more ZDDP. Even a good 0W-40 like Mobil 1 could also do the job, perhaps its higher-viscosity-index GTL base oil is not much thinner than a typically inferior Group III base oil of a 5W-40. So, yeah, perhaps use Mobil 1 0W-40. It will work.
I'm curious, are you getting very technical and saying that in general all ester and pao base oils are named incorrectly due to low % of pao or ester? I recall some oils have %20 pao so they can't be called pao base oil?
Like low fat milk should be called water
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Oh, no, when I say that there is no such thing as ester-base oil, I mean that when an oil talks about esters, it's usually only about a couple of percent or so. Esters are only used in small amounts and this is to benefit from their advantages while avoiding the problems they cause. For example, the "ester-based" oil the OP mentioned is actually a PAO-and-Group-III-based oil with a small amount of ester (probably a couple of percent) in it.

If oil is sold in Germany as full synthetic or 100% synthetic, that means % of PAO or Ester is above 50%. Motul would be in a lot of legal trouble if they are lying.
Best way to check this is to see how manufacturers label their oils on German market and than same products on market like UK, France etc.
For example Mobil1 0W40 is sold in Germany as Synthetic Technology, in France it is sold as Full Synthetic.
 
Originally Posted by Cauf61
Originally Posted by kschachn
I have a hard time imagining that I'd use anything other than an oil with actual Ferrari approval, considering in Europe you have access to the excellent Helix product.

But maybe that's just me.


Correct at first glance.

But my Ferrari 348 is from 1992 and the oil formulation then was completely different then now.
Just think of the use of cat's and low emissions now.
I my view ( maybe wrong, that's why i ask over here ;-) ) these "old" flat tappet engines need a higher ZDDP content.
I know this is also open for discussion.

What worries me the most is the fact the Helix ultra is foaming very much. It is almost like a cappuchino in the dry sump tank. Maybe no problem but i don't know.





I heard of that foaming in regular engines too.
Considering age of that engine, I would use any W40 as long as it meets some stringent specifications like MB 229.1/3/5 or LL98, 01.
Do you have access to Redline? I do not like their marketing strategy, but I think they are higher in ZDDP.
 
Originally Posted by spk2000
Is that a timing belt on that Ferrari engine? Very cool to see one. Sorry I should not recommend oil for a Ferrari as I don't know much about them.
Thanks for the pictures

Yes it is.

Here is a better photo and the engine almost back in.

20180118_162721.jpg


DSC_5332.JPG
 
Originally Posted by 1JZ_E46
Welcome. That engine has cam-over-bucket valvetrain (not flat tappets in the U.S. V8-sense). Much less loading on the bucket and not prone to the issues of pushrod V8 flat tappets, and therefore high ZDDP oil is not needed.

You're on the right track with SHU 5W-40. I would run any 5W-40 with an A3/B4 specification and the following approvals: BMW LL-01, Mercedes 229.5, Porsche A40. Those approvals guarantee quality, as the tests are very stringent. There should be a few oils in your area to chose from.


Here are the specs from Shell Europe. Looks fine. So will stick to the Helix after all.
 

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Originally Posted by Cauf61
The workshop manual say's Agip Sint 2000 10W40

At one time that was the Ferrari approved oil but no longer. AFAIK it is only Helix and here in the US, Pennzoil Platinum Euro 5W-40 and Racing 10W-60.
 
Originally Posted by Bailes1992
I would stick with the Shell Helix Ultra 5w40. It's currently the only oil approved by Ferrarri.


^^ I concur with this ^^
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
If oil is sold in Germany as full synthetic or 100% synthetic, that means % of PAO or Ester is above 50%. Motul would be in a lot of legal trouble if they are lying.
Best way to check this is to see how manufacturers label their oils on German market and than same products on market like UK, France etc.
For example Mobil1 0W40 is sold in Germany as Synthetic Technology, in France it is sold as Full Synthetic.

None of Motul oils are labeled "vollsynthese" as far as I know. They don't relabel for the German market.

According to the MSDS, The Motul OP mentioned appears to be PAO (~ 2/3) + Group III (~ 1/3), with a small amount of ester. However, I see the PAO only in the motorcycle versin. I don't know if the car version is different.
 
Originally Posted by Cauf61
Could you please explain this sentence ?? "the "ester-based" oil the OP mentioned is actually a PAO-and-Group-III-based oil "

Are you referring to the Motul or the M1 oil ?

Motul. According to the MSDS, it appears to be mostly PAO with a small amount of ester to aid combat oxidation and improve cleaning. It also has a lot of Group III. However, the car version doesn't list PAO while the motorcycle version does. Perhaps, the two versions are different.
 
Regarding foaming, Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 goes through multiple latest foaming tests. All oils must go through foaming tests. I don't know if choosing a different oil would help.
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Regarding foaming, Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 goes through multiple latest foaming tests. All oils must go through foaming tests. I don't know if choosing a different oil would help.

Note that the new CK-4 HDEOs are required to pass the new ASTM D8047 Caterpillar COAT foam/aeration test in addition to the standard ASTM D892 foam test required for ILSAC and ACEA oils. CK-4 oils also go through the standard ASTM D892 but with stricter passing criteria than for PCMOs.

So, if foaming is a problem, perhaps, try a synthetic CK-4 5W-40. It will definitely work in an older Ferrari. You get more ZDDP if it doesn't have the dual SN rating.

https://www.astm.org/Standards/D8047.htm
 
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Regarding foaming, Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 goes through multiple latest foaming tests. All oils must go through foaming tests. I don't know if choosing a different oil would help.

Note that the new CK-4 HDEOs are required to pass the new ASTM D8047 Caterpillar COAT foam/aeration test in addition to the standard ASTM D892 foam test required for ILSAC and ACEA oils. CK-4 oils also go through the standard ASTM D892 but with stricter passing criteria than for PCMOs.

So, if foaming is a problem, perhaps, try a synthetic CK-4 5W-40. It will definitely work in an older Ferrari. You get more ZDDP if it doesn't have the dual SN rating.

https://www.astm.org/Standards/D8047.htm


Can you give an example for synthetic CK-4 5W40 oil ?
What is the SN rating ?
 
Originally Posted by Cauf61
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Regarding foaming, Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 goes through multiple latest foaming tests. All oils must go through foaming tests. I don't know if choosing a different oil would help.

Note that the new CK-4 HDEOs are required to pass the new ASTM D8047 Caterpillar COAT foam/aeration test in addition to the standard ASTM D892 foam test required for ILSAC and ACEA oils. CK-4 oils also go through the standard ASTM D892 but with stricter passing criteria than for PCMOs.

So, if foaming is a problem, perhaps, try a synthetic CK-4 5W-40. It will definitely work in an older Ferrari. You get more ZDDP if it doesn't have the dual SN rating.

https://www.astm.org/Standards/D8047.htm
Can you give an example for synthetic CK-4 5W40 oil ?
What is the SN rating ?

SN/SN PLUS (related to ILSAC GF-5, PLUS is an additional test from the future version) is the latest gasoline-engine rating by API (soon to be replaced by SP and ILSAC GF-6). CK-4 is the latest heavy-duty-diesel-engine rating by API.

We have a lot of API CK-4 5W-40 HDEOs in US but apparently the 5W-40 viscosity grade is nonexistent for HDEOs in Europe. They seem to have 10W-40 instead, which, is strangely, nonexistent for HDEOs in US.
 
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