I'm considering the .38 special +P 158 gr LSWCHP for use in my S & W Model 10 (and possibly my new Ruger SP101 .357 3") for home protection. From everything I've read, it seems that this load is inapprpriate for use in 2" barrels due to insufficient velocity for reliable expansion. (FBI 4 layer denim test failure, etc) In 3" and especially 4" barrels it appears that this load is still very competitive with the more modern offerings like Speer's Gold Dot and Cor-Bon's DPX line in terms of penetration and expansion. Are there any weaknesses or limitations to this load that I've overlooked? It's a hard hitting round with muzzle energy around 280 ft/lbs (Remington and Winchester)and Buffalo Bore offers a very hot version of this round that really caught my eye, especially for use in my Ruger SP101. Thanks to all for any info/guidance.
"FBI" LOAD FOR HOME DEFENSE
- Thread starter MADMIKE
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Madmike, You ever been shot at? I have and I was not wondering if his load meet with FBI criteria!!!LOL Seeing how more people are killed in America with .22 rimfire ammo then any other cartridge i think your concern is just point less worry!I can gurantee you that if you hit someone in the center of mass or their head with +P .38 special they are not going to be having a good day! How often do you run into home invaders wearing 4 layers of deniem or feather down coats? The FBI has a problem with a lot of hollow points due to feather down caots pluging up the hollow cavity!
Find an Ammo that feeds well and is accurate and do not worry about the rest. It is different when hunting an animal with a pistol then it is trying to stop a human from wanting to kill you. The animal you want to drop and kill quickly for human reasons the human often just hearing the bang of the gun is deterent enough even if you miss! Personaly I like to use as much gun as I can hide for CCW if I am concerned about one shot stoping power. So by default I would be looking at 45ACP,10MM,357Mag etc.......all of those can be concealed rather easily if you go much bigger you have to be a big guy to conceal them. On the other hand I am not one to worry and I have routinly carried a Walther PPK with Hollow Points and I do not even go +P or +P+ even though I can easily because I reload!
I am 6 foot 2 350lbs. So I can actually carry my .44 Mag with a 9.5 inch barrel concealed carry and not have anyone see it! So it is not a matter of not being able to carry enough gun. If you want to see what your +p .38 spc is going to do pick up 2-3 beef briskets tape them together with Duct tap and take a few shots at them then measure how deep they went. If you want to cut the leg off an old pair of blue jeans and tape that in front of the meat that is two layers of denim. Bear in mind that the human heart is less then 2 inch's under the breast plate on most people.
Whenyou are done slice those briskets into 1/4 inch thick slices and make into Beef Jerky no sense wasting the meat that is why I had you leave them int he package.
Another thing to keep in mind before all this center of mass talk...I was taught from the age of 6 to double tap head and heart head and heart and I still do this today out of habit! The worst thing in the world is a live victum because they can sue and they can contradict your version of events. It is better to kill them then wound them!
So to recap if you are worried this much about one shot stoping power use a bigger heavier bullet! Two aim to kill not to wound! three do your own testing and see if you are happy. I use cheap wad cutter or cheap hollow points in my .44mag. The hollow points are for hunting and the wad cutters are for target work and use on humans if the need should arise? Why? Because I do not need to spend any more then that to get the lethal performance I need so why spend more? My 44mag with wad cutters can penetrate 27 layers of Kevlar vest material. Why would I need more penatration then that? As far as mush rooming goes with that much mass I do not have to depend on expansion to gurantee that enough energy get's transferred to the person to kill them.
I worry more about an animal getting away and suffering then I do a human not being stoped in their tracks!
Find an Ammo that feeds well and is accurate and do not worry about the rest. It is different when hunting an animal with a pistol then it is trying to stop a human from wanting to kill you. The animal you want to drop and kill quickly for human reasons the human often just hearing the bang of the gun is deterent enough even if you miss! Personaly I like to use as much gun as I can hide for CCW if I am concerned about one shot stoping power. So by default I would be looking at 45ACP,10MM,357Mag etc.......all of those can be concealed rather easily if you go much bigger you have to be a big guy to conceal them. On the other hand I am not one to worry and I have routinly carried a Walther PPK with Hollow Points and I do not even go +P or +P+ even though I can easily because I reload!
I am 6 foot 2 350lbs. So I can actually carry my .44 Mag with a 9.5 inch barrel concealed carry and not have anyone see it! So it is not a matter of not being able to carry enough gun. If you want to see what your +p .38 spc is going to do pick up 2-3 beef briskets tape them together with Duct tap and take a few shots at them then measure how deep they went. If you want to cut the leg off an old pair of blue jeans and tape that in front of the meat that is two layers of denim. Bear in mind that the human heart is less then 2 inch's under the breast plate on most people.
Whenyou are done slice those briskets into 1/4 inch thick slices and make into Beef Jerky no sense wasting the meat that is why I had you leave them int he package.
Another thing to keep in mind before all this center of mass talk...I was taught from the age of 6 to double tap head and heart head and heart and I still do this today out of habit! The worst thing in the world is a live victum because they can sue and they can contradict your version of events. It is better to kill them then wound them!
So to recap if you are worried this much about one shot stoping power use a bigger heavier bullet! Two aim to kill not to wound! three do your own testing and see if you are happy. I use cheap wad cutter or cheap hollow points in my .44mag. The hollow points are for hunting and the wad cutters are for target work and use on humans if the need should arise? Why? Because I do not need to spend any more then that to get the lethal performance I need so why spend more? My 44mag with wad cutters can penetrate 27 layers of Kevlar vest material. Why would I need more penatration then that? As far as mush rooming goes with that much mass I do not have to depend on expansion to gurantee that enough energy get's transferred to the person to kill them.
I worry more about an animal getting away and suffering then I do a human not being stoped in their tracks!
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm Try this link for some general info.
The guy who wrote the book on handgun stopping power (Evan Marshall) uses the .38 DPX as his personal carry round in a snub. He says the 135gr Gold Dot load is a very close second.
The Gold Dot load was designed for NY police officers who carried 2" backups so I feel comfortable using it in my 3" Model 60. The DPX round is hard to find in my neck of the woods.
I avoid magnums indoors because of the hearing loss you will experience without earplugs.
PS: The FBI load is fine in a snub. They kick in a light gun but so do the other two loads you are considering.
The Gold Dot load was designed for NY police officers who carried 2" backups so I feel comfortable using it in my 3" Model 60. The DPX round is hard to find in my neck of the woods.
I avoid magnums indoors because of the hearing loss you will experience without earplugs.
PS: The FBI load is fine in a snub. They kick in a light gun but so do the other two loads you are considering.
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This may be the one to beat as it is bonded...expandes .15" more than many of the best!
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_57&products_id=215
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_57&products_id=215
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You don't want to Kill them you want to stop them . "Killing" is what is done to stop them .
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I am 6 foot 2 350lbs. So I can actually carry my .44 Mag with a 9.5 inch barrel concealed carry and not have anyone see it!
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Seeing how more people are killed in America with .22 rimfire ammo then any other cartridge
Got a source for that?
I am 6 foot 2 350lbs. So I can actually carry my .44 Mag with a 9.5 inch barrel concealed carry and not have anyone see it!
Quote:
Seeing how more people are killed in America with .22 rimfire ammo then any other cartridge
Got a source for that?
Found out that (during the summmer) the FBI has switched to the new Winchester Bonded PDX1. Cabella's has it.
165 grain for their Glock 22 and 23's. (.40 S&W.) Agents can carry either.
The 9mm 124 grain +P looks real good as does the .38 special +P 130 grain.
Looks like this is the one to beat for now!
http://winchester.com/products/newitems/pdx1.aspx
165 grain for their Glock 22 and 23's. (.40 S&W.) Agents can carry either.
The 9mm 124 grain +P looks real good as does the .38 special +P 130 grain.
Looks like this is the one to beat for now!
http://winchester.com/products/newitems/pdx1.aspx
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I remember a long time ago a lot of people talked about the 'FBI load' (actually the Treasury load) and how it would make the .38 Special a powerful handgun. And then came the .357 Magnum and then all of the semi-autos.
Probably what really counts regardless what kind of handgun or ammo you have is putting the rounds where they count. Unless somebody is wearing body armor two to the chest usually works. Third one goes to the face.
Probably what really counts regardless what kind of handgun or ammo you have is putting the rounds where they count. Unless somebody is wearing body armor two to the chest usually works. Third one goes to the face.
Well I’m basically trying to decide between two different approaches and schools of thought—either go with the newer high tech bullet designs (125 gr +P Speer Gold Dot or 110 gr +P Corbon DPX) or the low tech, old fashioned brute force approach in the form of Buffalo Bore’s version of the FBI Load, a bruising 158 gr +P LSWCHP that generates some very stout ballistics numbers!
I'd go with the GDHP or DPX fro general duty and keep a couple boxes of the FBI load or other heavy cast lead load around for woods protection unless you don't think you will have to worry about that.
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FBI loads are mostly concerned with hard cover, like auto glass and car doors.
You don't need or necessarily want such well constructed bullets for home defense (over penetration).
I think just about any 125gr. +p .38 would do well. I like silvertips for home defense (soft aluminum jacket) but you live in an area where people will wear heavy clothing so a typical copper jacket bullet makes sense.
You don't need or necessarily want such well constructed bullets for home defense (over penetration).
I think just about any 125gr. +p .38 would do well. I like silvertips for home defense (soft aluminum jacket) but you live in an area where people will wear heavy clothing so a typical copper jacket bullet makes sense.
I'd recommend the 158+P LSWCHP load for your revolvers. I'd rather have a little too much penetration than not enough. Shot placement with adequate penetration is what matters most. 158 grain bullets are generally what 38s are set to use as far as point of aim/impact. If less "blast" was desired, a standard pressure 158 SWC should be good as well. As always, YMMV ...
Originally Posted By: MADMIKE
Well I’m basically trying to decide between two different approaches and schools of thought—either go with the newer high tech bullet designs (125 gr +P Speer Gold Dot or 110 gr +P Corbon DPX) or the low tech, old fashioned brute force approach in the form of Buffalo Bore’s version of the FBI Load, a bruising 158 gr +P LSWCHP that generates some very stout ballistics numbers!
Kind like the difference between getting hit by a Ferarri at 120mph, or a Freightligner at 55mph the end result's about the same.
Bob
Well I’m basically trying to decide between two different approaches and schools of thought—either go with the newer high tech bullet designs (125 gr +P Speer Gold Dot or 110 gr +P Corbon DPX) or the low tech, old fashioned brute force approach in the form of Buffalo Bore’s version of the FBI Load, a bruising 158 gr +P LSWCHP that generates some very stout ballistics numbers!
Kind like the difference between getting hit by a Ferarri at 120mph, or a Freightligner at 55mph the end result's about the same.
Bob
Yeah!! a miss with a 50 BMG is the same as a miss with a 22lr. All you hear is the bullet wizzing by.
Well my grandfather used to use .357 Magnum Shot Shells filled with Rock Salt in the mobil home park. Did not want to shoot the neighbors or the neighbors of the neighbors and in florida the chances of a a heavy jacket were slim.
Hornady's new Critical Defense ammo addresses your concern specifically. And forget about what the FBI says - you are not going to be shooting thru windshields, doors, etc.
You will need to find the anaul report put out by the FBI that collects and combines all the nations crime reports and information.
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/22_Long_Rifle/id/1899156
This gives you some history on the .22 from Boy Scouts to CIA
The information though has been posted over the last 20+ years in so many magazines that cater to law enforcement it will pop up again in your life time with the source if you read much outside of internet bbb site. The reason is number one people use what they have and .22LR is the most popular round by sales figures because even if someone only own one rifle it will normally be a .22 for teaching their kids how to shoot. They are good for harvesting varmints and have low recoil.
On top of that Almost every government has a program where they tech how to use a silenced sub sonic .22 to assassinate. I was taught this by an instructor in the US Army.The CIA also taught this as did the OSS. Even the IDF teach's this. Chechen used silenced .22 rifles for urban sniping all of this can be googled.Many SWAT teams have silenced .22 rifles for shooting out street lights.
Then you have all the orginized crime types that use a "Doctor's Gun" a .22 usualy stuffed into an orfice of the body. Then you have all the cheap .22 that are sold at pawn shop's.......
So it is simply a matter of it being popular, cheap and the most widely available cartridge on the planet even outside of AMerica!
For documentation I have no documentation that it takes 27 layers of Kevlar to stop a .44 Magnum round but I know it is true. Like most people on this earth I do not live my life documenting sources...I listen and learn and retain key fact. In fact I cannot document that a car goes forward when placed in Drive once the engine has been started but I knew it is true!In fact many groups try hard to document as little as possable so that a paper trail is not left and prefer to give orders orally that does not mean the order was not ever given!So asking for documentation is a cheap way of trying to deny something as factual.....Turned the other way that same person could ask you if you have any documentation that proves they are incorect!
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/22_Long_Rifle/id/1899156
This gives you some history on the .22 from Boy Scouts to CIA
The information though has been posted over the last 20+ years in so many magazines that cater to law enforcement it will pop up again in your life time with the source if you read much outside of internet bbb site. The reason is number one people use what they have and .22LR is the most popular round by sales figures because even if someone only own one rifle it will normally be a .22 for teaching their kids how to shoot. They are good for harvesting varmints and have low recoil.
On top of that Almost every government has a program where they tech how to use a silenced sub sonic .22 to assassinate. I was taught this by an instructor in the US Army.The CIA also taught this as did the OSS. Even the IDF teach's this. Chechen used silenced .22 rifles for urban sniping all of this can be googled.Many SWAT teams have silenced .22 rifles for shooting out street lights.
Then you have all the orginized crime types that use a "Doctor's Gun" a .22 usualy stuffed into an orfice of the body. Then you have all the cheap .22 that are sold at pawn shop's.......
So it is simply a matter of it being popular, cheap and the most widely available cartridge on the planet even outside of AMerica!
For documentation I have no documentation that it takes 27 layers of Kevlar to stop a .44 Magnum round but I know it is true. Like most people on this earth I do not live my life documenting sources...I listen and learn and retain key fact. In fact I cannot document that a car goes forward when placed in Drive once the engine has been started but I knew it is true!In fact many groups try hard to document as little as possable so that a paper trail is not left and prefer to give orders orally that does not mean the order was not ever given!So asking for documentation is a cheap way of trying to deny something as factual.....Turned the other way that same person could ask you if you have any documentation that proves they are incorect!
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