Unless you experienced an engine failure you will have a difficult time claiming additional "engine wear" due to the collapsed filter. I would send it to them and expect nthing more than a replacement. Then go to http://www.fleetfilter.com and get the wix napa gold filters and see the difference in construction. I used to use fram TG until I compared a wix and a tg side by side. If you do this you will never buy another fram. The prices at this website are very good and if you buy several it offsets shipping.
Failed Fram Oil Filter
- Thread starter Daryl_Chenoweth
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I talked to Fram. They will send me a form to fill out and submit with the failed filter. If the filter was at defective, ( they will examine it and let me know if it was defective) they said I could submit a "claim" for the cost of the filter! I said what about potential engine damage, he replied that on the claim form I should list "pending unknown damage" and wait to sumbit an estimated damage claim. How do I demonstrate mild engine damage because of constant oil bypass secondary to a failed filter? I will obtain an Oil Analysis to see if there are signs of excessive wear, but how can I prove that wear occured as a result of the failed filter??? Since I change my own oil, how can I prove routine maintaince? (since the car is out of warranty, I no longer save reciepts for filters or oil). Also the Fram rep. said if the filter was at fault, the company would be keeping the filter (and not return it since it is their property). If the filter was not defective, they would return it to me on request. Any suggestions out there on how I handle this claim (just in case Fram admits the filter was defective)? The rep said I could turn in a claim into their insurance company if Fram found the filter defective.
Daryl
Daryl
Originally Posted By: Daryl_Chenoweth
How do I demonstrate mild engine damage because of constant oil bypass secondary to a failed filter? I will obtain an Oil Analysis to see if there are signs of excessive wear, but how can I prove that wear occured as a result of the failed filter???
That's the bad part: you can't, and Fram knows it. Just take it as a lesson learned, and run a better filter in the future. I prefer WIX, but there are several other good brands, too.
How do I demonstrate mild engine damage because of constant oil bypass secondary to a failed filter? I will obtain an Oil Analysis to see if there are signs of excessive wear, but how can I prove that wear occured as a result of the failed filter???
That's the bad part: you can't, and Fram knows it. Just take it as a lesson learned, and run a better filter in the future. I prefer WIX, but there are several other good brands, too.
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Well, Daryl, your engine didn't grenade, so you're left with "loss of utility" for any potential claim to Fram's underwriter. That would be something like increased consumption ..etc..etc.
First, have you realized any loss of utility or value in your engine as a result of this (potential) failure?
Here. Read this. It's long, but if this guy hadn't done the "bypass defeat" trick (that I really think is a big mistake regardless of who came up with it "back in the day" ..as this guy figured out) he would have been able to put in a claim for this damage (although the hi-per modes may have made it more difficult to cash in on).
First, have you realized any loss of utility or value in your engine as a result of this (potential) failure?
Here. Read this. It's long, but if this guy hadn't done the "bypass defeat" trick (that I really think is a big mistake regardless of who came up with it "back in the day" ..as this guy figured out) he would have been able to put in a claim for this damage (although the hi-per modes may have made it more difficult to cash in on).
Gary,
Thanks for the link to the 2006 thread about the oil filter with a collapsed inner tube. Your right, it's long. I haven't read all 26 pages of it yet. Our stories are somewhat similar with the major exception that he suffered severe enging damage which was immediatly evident. Since my filter created it's own "bypass" even though it was not filtering the oil, at least I didn't have oil starvation.
Today I changed the oil in the car, and took a sample for an oil analysis. The filter, a Purolater this time, looked fine. Either the bypass valve opened on the new Purolater (as it should), or the Fram was defectve. Thats just my opinion at this point. I will post the results of the oil analysis when I get it back. Unfortunately, it will not reflect the degreee of contamination that was present in the oil at the time of the last filter change. I would suspect that the Purolater cleaned up the oil (at least to some degree) during the last 300 miles (since I installed it). If there has been significant bearing wear, I assume that will still show up in the oil analysis.
Thanks to everyone for their help. I am learning a lot about filter engineering! I just hope my engine wasn't damaged. This case makes me belive that filter changes at routine 3 or 4,000 mile intervals are a very good idea. That way, if a filter does happen to be defective, at least we can limit the damage.
Daryl
Thanks for the link to the 2006 thread about the oil filter with a collapsed inner tube. Your right, it's long. I haven't read all 26 pages of it yet. Our stories are somewhat similar with the major exception that he suffered severe enging damage which was immediatly evident. Since my filter created it's own "bypass" even though it was not filtering the oil, at least I didn't have oil starvation.
Today I changed the oil in the car, and took a sample for an oil analysis. The filter, a Purolater this time, looked fine. Either the bypass valve opened on the new Purolater (as it should), or the Fram was defectve. Thats just my opinion at this point. I will post the results of the oil analysis when I get it back. Unfortunately, it will not reflect the degreee of contamination that was present in the oil at the time of the last filter change. I would suspect that the Purolater cleaned up the oil (at least to some degree) during the last 300 miles (since I installed it). If there has been significant bearing wear, I assume that will still show up in the oil analysis.
Thanks to everyone for their help. I am learning a lot about filter engineering! I just hope my engine wasn't damaged. This case makes me belive that filter changes at routine 3 or 4,000 mile intervals are a very good idea. That way, if a filter does happen to be defective, at least we can limit the damage.
Daryl
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Although the UOA will be void of any of the finer resultant debris, most UOA don't read bigger than 5um. What would be a decent indicator of insult would be higher than UA averages in Pb due to a bearing streak (sorta like a pebble gouging a bearing and having it bleed for a while). This should show up for a bit and easy enough to rationalize as "damage". Now it's probably not anything to really get a repair for, but it might result in a minor settlement.
Today Blackstone sent my used oil analysis results from the engine with the failed Fram oil filter. The results were all normal. No abnormal wear was indicated. I haven't sent the filter to Honeywell yet. I may send it to Blackstone since they informed me they have a a recent rash of complaints related to oil filters with collapsed center tubes! They wanted to know who made my filter since no one had mentioned what brand of filters had failed. Below was my response.
Blackstone-Labs
Thanks for the favorable oil analysis. I was concerned that perhaps excessive engine wear could have occurred because of the collapsed center tube in the Fram Tough Guard oil filter. As far as I can tell, even though the center tube did partially collapse, I see no evidence (without cutting the filter open) that oil did actually bypass the filter media. I am
assuming the bypass valve (engineered into the filter) failed and must have allowed increased psi inside the filter to cause the damage. Either that, or the fact that the anti-drainback valve was severely displaced, may have caused a problem with pressures inside the filter.
The appropriate filter for the application was used. I have photos of the filter posted at http://www.daveistheoilguy.com I contacted Honeywell about the failed filter, they asked me to send it to them so their staff can inspect it. Honeywell stated they would send me a report on their findings.
Since I have had no apparent engine damage, I would almost rather send it to YOU if you would be interested in seeing it. (I assume Honeywell wants to get this failed filter back into their own hands and not allow me to use it for unfavorable PR).
Do you have the ability to cut open the filter and inspect it? Have you done that type of inspection previously, and then provided an independent report on your findings? This has been an interesting issue, related to a defective filter. I have changed my oil for many years with only one episode of a partially displaced Anti-drainback valve about 30
years ago (that filter happened to be a Purolator).
Any suggestions on where I should go with this "issue" from here?
Thanks for the prompt e-mail response, and oil analysis report! You guys
ROCK.
Blackstone-Labs
Thanks for the favorable oil analysis. I was concerned that perhaps excessive engine wear could have occurred because of the collapsed center tube in the Fram Tough Guard oil filter. As far as I can tell, even though the center tube did partially collapse, I see no evidence (without cutting the filter open) that oil did actually bypass the filter media. I am
assuming the bypass valve (engineered into the filter) failed and must have allowed increased psi inside the filter to cause the damage. Either that, or the fact that the anti-drainback valve was severely displaced, may have caused a problem with pressures inside the filter.
The appropriate filter for the application was used. I have photos of the filter posted at http://www.daveistheoilguy.com I contacted Honeywell about the failed filter, they asked me to send it to them so their staff can inspect it. Honeywell stated they would send me a report on their findings.
Since I have had no apparent engine damage, I would almost rather send it to YOU if you would be interested in seeing it. (I assume Honeywell wants to get this failed filter back into their own hands and not allow me to use it for unfavorable PR).
Do you have the ability to cut open the filter and inspect it? Have you done that type of inspection previously, and then provided an independent report on your findings? This has been an interesting issue, related to a defective filter. I have changed my oil for many years with only one episode of a partially displaced Anti-drainback valve about 30
years ago (that filter happened to be a Purolator).
Any suggestions on where I should go with this "issue" from here?
Thanks for the prompt e-mail response, and oil analysis report! You guys
ROCK.
Who is this Dave and why does he think he's the oil guy?
Dave? DAVE? Dave's not here...
Sorry I couldn't resist...shows how old I am, too...
Sorry I couldn't resist...shows how old I am, too...
Yeah, sorry about the "Dave" is the oil guy brain phart which I noticed AFTER sending the email to Blackstone! I immediatly re-sent another email with BOB listed as the true "oil guy". I wondered if anyone reading this thread would catch it! You guys are GREAT.
I still have the Fram filter in my garage. I kind of felt like the pressuere was off after getting back a good oil analysis. I have thought about just taking the filter to my local NAPA store to allow them to use it for "show and tell" about why it may not be a good idea to purchase Fram products.?? But then I suspect this is a rare problem with Fram (I have used them for years without known problems). Any suggestions from the forum? Thanks, Daryl
I still have the Fram filter in my garage. I kind of felt like the pressuere was off after getting back a good oil analysis. I have thought about just taking the filter to my local NAPA store to allow them to use it for "show and tell" about why it may not be a good idea to purchase Fram products.?? But then I suspect this is a rare problem with Fram (I have used them for years without known problems). Any suggestions from the forum? Thanks, Daryl
Send the filter to Honeywell as requested for two reasons. 1) you want to know what caused it, 2) they can run a trace on that filter to find out when and where it was manufactured, and on what shift. If there was an assembly problem, maybe they can prevent it from happening to someone else.
Even if you have no engine damage, if it is the filters fault, they will cover the cost for replacing the filter and the oil change. They will also reimburse you cost of shipping them the filter if it is defective.
Giving that filter to NAPA or posting pictures on the web and blaming FRAM is not the correct thing to do, when you do not know what caused it. I've seen every filter brand made have defects of some kind over the years. Does not make them a lousy filter.
Even if you have no engine damage, if it is the filters fault, they will cover the cost for replacing the filter and the oil change. They will also reimburse you cost of shipping them the filter if it is defective.
Giving that filter to NAPA or posting pictures on the web and blaming FRAM is not the correct thing to do, when you do not know what caused it. I've seen every filter brand made have defects of some kind over the years. Does not make them a lousy filter.
Johnny,
Thanks for your input. I understand your point about not knowing for sure what caused the filter to fail. I do know however, the Purolater filter I put on the car immediatly after the FRAM came off, was removed 500 miles later and looked perfect. Perhaps the displaced ADV (on the FRAM) could have been the cause of the problem?? All I know, is that when I send it to FRAM, I will lose any and all evidence of a defective filter which could have caused damage to my engine. If FRAM says it wasn't defective, (and of course they will, what company in the US self-implicates themselves?) I will have nothing left to show what could have caused (potential) engine damage. I wish there was a neutral third party (independent) I could send it to for an opinion. I really don't care about the cost of the filter. I would rather use the filter as evidence of a faulty product. The filter clearly failed.
Thanks, Daryl
Thanks for your input. I understand your point about not knowing for sure what caused the filter to fail. I do know however, the Purolater filter I put on the car immediatly after the FRAM came off, was removed 500 miles later and looked perfect. Perhaps the displaced ADV (on the FRAM) could have been the cause of the problem?? All I know, is that when I send it to FRAM, I will lose any and all evidence of a defective filter which could have caused damage to my engine. If FRAM says it wasn't defective, (and of course they will, what company in the US self-implicates themselves?) I will have nothing left to show what could have caused (potential) engine damage. I wish there was a neutral third party (independent) I could send it to for an opinion. I really don't care about the cost of the filter. I would rather use the filter as evidence of a faulty product. The filter clearly failed.
Thanks, Daryl
Daryl,
I honestly don't think you are going to get anywhere with Honeywell. It seems that your engine hopefully wasn't damaged so I would resolve myself to never use a Fram again and use another brand.
I honestly don't think you are going to get anywhere with Honeywell. It seems that your engine hopefully wasn't damaged so I would resolve myself to never use a Fram again and use another brand.
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Quote:
If FRAM says it wasn't defective, (and of course they will, what company in the US self-implicates themselves?)
Don't assume this. If they find it defective and you allege damage due to it, they will refer you to their insurance company to handle the claim. THEN you may be in for the hassle to determine the cost/loss you encountered due to the defective filter.
If it makes you feel better, take images, document the mailing ..etc..etc. Otherwise, you're sitting on a defective filter waiting for something to happen ..and then what are you going to do, find an attorney that specializes in defective filter claims and has his own filter testing lab?
If FRAM says it wasn't defective, (and of course they will, what company in the US self-implicates themselves?)
Don't assume this. If they find it defective and you allege damage due to it, they will refer you to their insurance company to handle the claim. THEN you may be in for the hassle to determine the cost/loss you encountered due to the defective filter.
If it makes you feel better, take images, document the mailing ..etc..etc. Otherwise, you're sitting on a defective filter waiting for something to happen ..and then what are you going to do, find an attorney that specializes in defective filter claims and has his own filter testing lab?
Originally Posted By: Daryl_Chenoweth
Johnny,
Thanks for your input. I understand your point about not knowing for sure what caused the filter to fail. I do know however, the Purolater filter I put on the car immediatly after the FRAM came off, was removed 500 miles later and looked perfect. Perhaps the displaced ADV (on the FRAM) could have been the cause of the problem?? All I know, is that when I send it to FRAM, I will lose any and all evidence of a defective filter which could have caused damage to my engine. If FRAM says it wasn't defective, (and of course they will, what company in the US self-implicates themselves?) I will have nothing left to show what could have caused (potential) engine damage. I wish there was a neutral third party (independent) I could send it to for an opinion. I really don't care about the cost of the filter. I would rather use the filter as evidence of a faulty product. The filter clearly failed.
Thanks, Daryl
Quote: "All I know, is that when I send it to FRAM, I will lose any and all evidence of a defective filter which could have caused damage to my engine."
The way I see it is all Fram is going to do is possibly pay you for an oil change. The words "could have caused damage to my engine", is the key. When a company hears this they will say: did it cause damage? If so, prove it, "could have" means nothing in product liability.
I would take pictures of the filter before sending it off to them. Hopefully you will get some satisfaction, good luck.
JMO,
Frank D
Johnny,
Thanks for your input. I understand your point about not knowing for sure what caused the filter to fail. I do know however, the Purolater filter I put on the car immediatly after the FRAM came off, was removed 500 miles later and looked perfect. Perhaps the displaced ADV (on the FRAM) could have been the cause of the problem?? All I know, is that when I send it to FRAM, I will lose any and all evidence of a defective filter which could have caused damage to my engine. If FRAM says it wasn't defective, (and of course they will, what company in the US self-implicates themselves?) I will have nothing left to show what could have caused (potential) engine damage. I wish there was a neutral third party (independent) I could send it to for an opinion. I really don't care about the cost of the filter. I would rather use the filter as evidence of a faulty product. The filter clearly failed.
Thanks, Daryl
Quote: "All I know, is that when I send it to FRAM, I will lose any and all evidence of a defective filter which could have caused damage to my engine."
The way I see it is all Fram is going to do is possibly pay you for an oil change. The words "could have caused damage to my engine", is the key. When a company hears this they will say: did it cause damage? If so, prove it, "could have" means nothing in product liability.
I would take pictures of the filter before sending it off to them. Hopefully you will get some satisfaction, good luck.
JMO,
Frank D
The final plan for my failed Fram product is take the oil filter to a local NAPA store (whom sells Wix filters), and give it to the guys at the counter. They can use the filter however they see fit. Use it for marketing, or dispose of it. My reason for not sending it to Honeywell is two fold. By the time I got the oil analysis results back (which showed no excessive wear) the 30 day time limit (to send in the defective filter) had passed. Honeywell won't do anything for me, because I can't prove or show damage. The antidrain back valve (ADBV), even though being torn and badly displaced, did not appear to have missing fragments which would have entered my engine and blocked critical oil passages. I was actually very lucky a torn portion of the displaced ADBV didn't break off and enter the engine. One torn area of the ADBV (in the center core of the filter) did easily break off while I was taking photos of the defective filter. Had that loose fragment broken off prior to me performing routine maintance (and it would have very soon), it would have entered an engine oil passage and created a oil flow blockage that would have created a starvation issue, and subsequent damage. I know that my Fram filter may have been atypical, but nonetheless it did fail. Quality control was clearly an issue with the production of my filter. I won't be purchasing Frams in the future. I will now purchase Purolater or Wix. I actually prefer the Wix because of a design which allows for (what I belive) is a better internal bypass valve. Thanks to all who have taken time to post your thoughts on this subject. I really appreciated your comments.
Daryl
Daryl
This letter is posted on the "Oil Filter Comparison" website that I posted in another thread. If you look at the Fram filter that is cut open in that website, it will explain your problem with Fram. Basically, they are garbage.
Interesting letter: http://www.knizefamily.net/minimopar/oilfilters/fram1.txt
Interesting letter: http://www.knizefamily.net/minimopar/oilfilters/fram1.txt
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