Extended Drains 101

[buster]

quote:

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The UOAs for all of these indicate they're QUALITY oils. Ford uses Motorcraft in their engines at the factory, not Amsoil

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Motorcraft oil is good stuff, but bc Ford uses it in factory fill is due to price. Syn lubes main benefit are extended drains and performance under extreme conditions..towing, weather, racing etc.


Ken, your correct. I do pay $20 for the annual fee. So it's more like $52 + $20 fee =$72.(case of 12) and change with shipping. Per qt. would be $6. I was going with 3k mile drains but your right 5k is safe with highway miles. Schaeffer's is a great choice and I might try it at some point. If I can, I'd like to go 15-20k with Amsoil and in this case I'd be really saving $$. We'll see. I want to sample some at 12k next time.

Metroplex, your forgetting the fact that I don't want to change the oil that much. I'm saving time as well, not just money. With $1qt., I would save money, but I usually don't see to many brands for a $1. I'll have to look more closely next time I go out.

[ April 20, 2003, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[metroplex]

For the past 22 years the 302 V8 has gotten 3 month oil change intervals using the least expensive oil filter and the least expensive 10W-40 dino oil.

Last time I opened up the top of the engine - it had some sludging but nowhere as bad as some of these Hondas/Saturns.

My 302 V8 and 4.6L SOHC V8 both use 5-6 qt of oil, while the 5.4L SOHC V8 uses 6 qt of oil. That's pretty much the average oil capacity for modern engines. Maybe with a 4-banger in a ricer car or a Jokes wagen its 3-4 qt, which changes the cost analysis somewhat. THAT BEING SAID I am a firm believer in synthetics. I just don't see an ABSOLUTE and MANDATORY need to use them in the engine in order to keep it running for years to come.

My 302 V8 from 1981 has a meager 97k miles, but 99% of that was driven in the city environment, with trips less than 5 miles each. That's significantly harsher than cruising down the highway at 1000 RPM for 60 miles+ each way. Engine makes very good vaccuum, doesn't blow out smoke, and passed NJ emissions inspection at the DMV with FLYING colors. Heck if I didn't know better its running better than it did back in 1981. Amsoil, Redline, Mobil 1, Royal Purple, etc... never touched the engine. I used Pennzoil, Valvoline, Quaker State, Castrol, Havoline, etc... from 1981 up to now. And back then the 10W-40 wasn't as good as the 10W-40 right now.

So you're telling me that I HAVE to use synthetic Amsoil and extend my oil drain intervals in order to get better longevity than changing "cheap" dino oil every 3k? Sorry I don't buy it.

For the cost of an oil analysis ($20) I could buy 20 quarts of dino oil!!! Add the TBN analysis and that's about 10 more quarts. Anyone here know of an engine (non-racing, non-severe duty only usage, etc...) that failed because the owner changed the oil too frequently using dino oil instead of extending the drain interval using a synthetic and sending in samples for oil analysis?

 

[buster]

Metroplex, your missing the point. I'm not saying ANYONE should use synthetics to extend engine life. What I am saying is that for me, I don't want to have to change the oil so frequently so I want an oil that can go 15-20k safely. Like I said before, I'm on board now with trying extended drains if the UOA looks good. If you drove 50k miles per year, you would get real tired of changing the oil every month. My miles should drop down to 30k starting late May so at that point, I could go with 2 changes per year possibly. Again, I'm not saying your car will last any longer or you should use synthetics but for sales people or truckers synthetics payoff.

[ April 20, 2003, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Spector]

After 10 years with Amsoil on multiple cars my opinion is "it ain't cost effective" and oil analysis just adds to it. Cost savings is not why people use synthetics. And, 90% (IMO) of the driving public goes 12-18,000 miles/year not 25-50.000. People use synthetics for a host of reasons and cost effectiveness is not at the top IMO.

And we keep forgetting one thing that Bob said a few posts ago, it is engine dependent. In the perhaps 7 cars I have use synthetic in over the past 10 years only 3-4 could make 12,000 miles between changes and get a decent analysis. My Camry sure as hell cannot nor can my Isuzu (maybe if I drove 90% interstates but that is not reality) Most cars going the 60-70% city driving, short trips etc., will have, IMO, a poor oil analysis at 12,000 miles if they attempt to make it to 12,000.

However, I will bet that Amsoil's (corporate) definition of a good oil analysis result at 12,000 miles will be hugely different then what we would consider acceptable and that may be a huge part of the issue. They may say 50 ppm of iron is acceptable we certainly not would not. Further, no one can prove them wrong because there are no side by side tests.

 

[TooSlick]

Metroplex,

I consider than anyones labor to do an oil change is worth $20.00 - that skews the numbers considerably. If you take you car in 4 times a year to have the oil changed, it will run you about $100.00. Six quarts of Amsoil plus two of their extended life oil filters will run you about $60.00 - at full retail. Figure $15.00 labor for the quick lube to do the complete change and another $5.00 to do just the filter change @ six months, at which time the also check all the fluids. Add in another $20.00 to do an annual oil analysis which isn't really necessary and you have a total of $100.00. You save two visits to the quick lube and you have the added bonus of monitoring the condition of your engine through a once a year oil analysis. Most of my Amsoil customers don't change their own oil - I have a couple of quick lubes that I refer them to. These places make most of their money on labor, so they are happy for the extra business.

This comparison does not even take into account any fuel savings. I typically see a fuel savings of 3%-5% with the Amsoil 0w-30, compared to a 10w-30 petroleum oil. I have about 95% repeat customers - once folks with several vehicles see how convenient the extended changes are, they hardly ever go back. You also generate much less used oil and used oil filters that you have to go and recycle, which I also think is an excellent idea. I have three cars and a bunch of lawn/garden equipment - it's a no brainer for me.

Finally, knowledgable used car buyers are looking for vehicles that have been run on synthetic oil, particularly in the case of high performance models. I'd never buy a used turbo engine that used conventional oil ....

TooSlick

 

[quadrun1]

quote:

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Originally posted by TooSlick:


I'd use my "Oil Change Formula" to get you in the ballpark as far as an initial change interval:

OCI = (120)(mpg)(sump capacity)(cubic inches/Hp)

As a practical matter if you didn't want to bother with this, I'd go with a 10k-12k/1 year change interval for severe service conditions, with a filter change and topoff halfway through....

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Thanks, TS.

Pretty good formula you got there! Dunno if you've seen it, but I've also come across another formula: (200)(average speed in mph). Yours looks better, as it takes other important factors into consideration.

Out of curiosity, I plugged in some numbers for my turbo SAAB:

(city mpg)
120*22*4.3*140/250=6,357

(hwy mpg)
120*31*4.3*140/250=8,958

SAAB recommends 5,000 (severe) or 10,000 (non-severe) miles between oil changes on a minimum of 5W-30 semi-synth. I plan on going to 10k with fully synthetic oil if the UOAs look good.

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Your formula is right on the money for my dad's 2000 BMW 528i:

(city mpg)
120*20*7*171/192=14962

(hwy mpg)
120*28*7*171/192=20199

BMW requires a 5W-30 synthetic meeting BMW Longlife specs. Dad's car gets closer to the city mpg (thanks to NYC traffic) and the maint computer almost always calls for oil changes at around 15,000 miles, except for one interval with more highway miles, and the interval was 17,000 miles.

Jason

 

[buster]

quote:

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There's no reason anyone has to use synthetic and extend their drain intervals in order to prolong the life of their engine.

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Metroplex, try driving 50k miles per year and tell me how you like changing the oil every 4 weeks.

BTW, those engines you were talking about having a little sludge would probably be sludge free if using a synthetic.

The main reasons I like syn. lubes are protection in cold/hot weather, extended drains and keeping the engine very clean.

[ April 21, 2003, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[TooSlick]

Jason,

Interesting numbers using the Oil Change Formula for the SAAB and BMW. I'd feel comfortable running those sort of drain intervals with Amsoil in those applications. The BMW engines are very clean running and that have that nice 7.5 quart sump. I'd like to see more domestic car manufacturers go that route!

TooSlick

 

[Narcoleptic]

quote:

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
5) Use an effective fuel injector cleaner on a regular basis, at least 1-2 times a year. I"ve had excellent results with the Amsoil performance improver. The Schaeffers Neutra and Redline SL-1 are also very effective. Chevron "techron' is probably one of the best off the shelf cleaners.

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What is the reasoning behind recommending the use of fuel injector cleaner?

Unless you use some bargain basement gas, the additive package in major gasolines does a good job. I see many people here warn against the use of oil additives saying that the manufacturer's additive package shouldn't be messed with, yet with gasoline its open season.

Granted I have only one fuel injected vehicle, but with 264,000 miles and the injectors still have a good spray pattern without any cleaners used.

 

[Jimbo]

1992 BMW 325i = 16,000 miles
1994 Ford 5.0 = 14,000 miles

Probably not totally unreasonable with a one year time limit and "normal" service (no arctic winters or excessive idling). "Boutique" synthetics like Amsoil and the higher ACEA rated OTC ones are good for extended drains, I'm not so sure about the "energy conserving" ones with low ZDDP and TBN.

Since I do not drive anywhere near that many miles per year, I'll stick with Delo 400. After reading the L&G article and doing oil analysis for verification, I can safely go one year anyway.

I'm a little uncomfortable about engine flushing. Techron, however works wonders for older EFI Fords that start pinging on regular fuel.

 

[Dominic]

First off I agree with metroplex.

#1 - My engine runs smoother, I get better fuel economy, and I use 0 oil running $1.80/qt Valvoline 10W-30 Maxlife.

#2 - I get 32-34mpg on the highway with the Valvoline, and I only got 29-30 with the Mobil 1.

I probably put 12,000 miles on my year, changing my oil costs me nothing but labor, and I dont equate that to $$ since I can change it at my convenience on the weekend. The difference between 2950 and 3002 miles on an oil is nothing, so changing it when I get a chance is fine.

$3 filter, 5qts oil, = $12/oil change (

)

If I run Mobil 1, the oil alone runs me $17.88. What benefit do I get running the oil longer? Add in the cost of oil analysis ($25 realistically with postage and such) and its really just all a bunch of wasted cost.

I'd rather do 3K oil changes and occasionally do analysis to make sure she's running right than I would attempt to go on super long drain intervals to save myself from changing my oil every 3 months. I got zero benefits from running Mobil 1, and I have run it in several cars, so I quit running it.

Oil changes are cheap if you do them yourself, there is no excuse unless you drive commercially to attempt a futile drain interval extention unless you're just environment concious or something. I might start running mine 5,000 miles per drain soon if it makes anyone feel better here

 

[Patman]

FWIW Dominic, when I ran a 3300 mile interval with 10w30 Maxlife in my 95 LT1 Firebird last summer, the oil looked like it could easily go 5k, it's TBN was at 8, viscosity holding at 11.5 (a previous UOA at 2400 miles showed it at 11.4 then) and oxidation was only 9%. This was right after an Auto-rx run though, so that certainly helped.

 

[Rick]

When I run synthetic in my engine, I find it runs quiter and much smoother is this not a good reason to be running synthetic? Also I find that as dino ages the engine doesn't run the same, where when running synthetic the engine away runs nice.

 

[buster]

It just comes down to your own situation. I drive so much, I like having synthetic oil so I can go longer. Cost isn't a factor to me. Oil really isn't expensive so I just use the best oil I can get a hold of. I want to start pushing drains to 10k + miles.