Excessive Rotor Runout Every 15K Miles

[barlowc]

I generally like the braking performance of my 2008 Nissan Altima Coupe. However, I am frustrated with the reoccurring rotor runout that I've experienced.

Around 20K miles, the pulsing bothered me enough that I took it to the dealer who turned the front rotors under warranty at no cost to me. The technician's notes were:

FOUND FRONT ROTORS OUT OF ROUND
RF 1.020 AFTER CUT 1.010
LF 1.021 AFTER CUT 1.011
REMACHINED RIGHT AND LEFT FRONT BRAKE ROTORS

Then, around 35K, when the pulsing started to come back, I took it back to the same dealer who again turned them (including the rears this time) under warranty at no cost to me. The technician's notes were:

EXCESSIVE RUN OUT OF FRONT ROTORS
.0011 RUNOUT
MACHINE FRONT BRAKE ROTORS FOR EVEN RUN OUT .0001 AFTER

EXCESSIVE RUN OUT OF .0012 ON REAR ROTORS CAUSING PULSATION
TECH MACHINED REAR BRAKE ROTORS . .0001 RUNOUT AFTER MACHINE.

Now I'm at 50K and the pulsation has come back. I'm no longer under the bumper-to-bumper warranty but am wondering if I have the basis for a legitimate complaint. It seems that if the proper corrective action had been taken before, the problem wouldn't keep coming back every 15K miles.

What do you guys think about the situation?

Did Nissan just use poor rotors?

Is it likely that there is an issue with runout on the wheel hubs that is causing this to come back?

Could it be an issue with the OE pads and how they lay down material over time?

What would you do if this were your vehicle?

 

[abycat]

I have not heard personally of any problems with the versa / altima / and maxima. I researched them pretty good before i bought my versa. If it were me i would if its still under warranty and get them to fix it again and then look at your driving habbits and maybe adjust them a bit and then see if its more than 15,000 when it comes back.

If it comes back quick again i would upgrade my brakes with some high quality ones. Maybe get some ceramic pads and high qual cross drilled and or slotted rotors.

This is all assuming you want to keep the car. I do think your heating up your rotors too much and thats causing the warpage. good luck man!

ps. my factory rotors on my versa are perfect at 35,000 km. When i was under there the other day i inspected them along with everything else underneath and everything was just fine. The only thing i fixed was a couple tiny rust specs on the rear suspension. they were black to begin with so i hit them with some sandpaper and some anti rust black paint.

 

[barlowc]

So I'm NOT under warranty anymore. But I'm wondering if I have the basis for a complaint pertaining to work that was done under warranty.

As for my driving habits, I drive this car very, very easy. It's my daily driver that is used for a 65 round-trip commute that is mostly highway. I'm not on the brakes much and I'm not on them very hard.

 

[mechanicx]

This dealers notes don't make a lot of sense. Run out is measured with a dial indicator and usually only measure to .001 accuracy. It says excessive run out at .0011. That is not excessive. Excessive is usually +.002. Then it says the rotors were machined and run out was corrected to .0001. I don't believe he could measure and hold run out to that finite level. I'd say maybe there's an added "0" but I doubt your rotors had .012 run out.

Run out itself does not cause pulsation. Thickness variation does so if he was calling TV run out then the numbers could make sense but I don't think that's it.

My question is did they turn the rotors on the car or off? And also did they measure run out before and after machining installed on the car, since that's what matters? I'm betting they just made up the numbers and turned the rotors off the car.

Your pulsation is coming back probably because the run out as installed on the car is not being corrected. You'll probably need new rotors and the run out measured on the car or have the rotors turned while on the car.

 

[mechtech2]

50,000 miles on those rotors and only 0.001" runout?
That's actually pretty good.
Reindexing them may help.

 

[barlowc]

mechanicx... I double checked the notes/numbers to make sure I hadn't typed them into the thread wrong. That's exactly how they appear on the paperwork. The technician was the same both times. I don't know if they turned them on or off the vehicle.

mechtech2... that runout is only after 15K. The rotors have been in use for 50K, but were last turned at 35K. What does "reindexing" mean?

 

[Corvette Owner]

My 2006 Nissan Murano has been very good with brakes. It went 102,000 miles with the original pads. I was so impressed that I replaced them with the OEM pads. The rotors were fine.

I've talked to other Nissan Owners and their SUVs/Trucks brakes seem to hold up a long time. I can't imagine that their cars would be that different.

Does a driver ride the brakes?

 

[abycat]

Originally Posted By: barlowc
mechanicx... I double checked the notes/numbers to make sure I hadn't typed them into the thread wrong. That's exactly how they appear on the paperwork. The technician was the same both times. I don't know if they turned them on or off the vehicle.

mechtech2... that runout is only after 15K. The rotors have been in use for 50K, but were last turned at 35K. What does "reindexing" mean?


I get what he is saying. He means by indexing that you need to take in account the warpage on the mating surface of the rotor to hub. If there is any. Which im thinking he thinks there is.

I also think that is a big possibility after thinking about it. Maybe the hub face is a little warped or just the rotor mating surface.

It would suck to go and get the parts for either the rotor or the hub and have it be the other is giving the problem. Since you are out of warranty. You will have to get someone to spin the rotor and measure the runout at the mating surface or hold the rotor by the mating surface and measure the outer.

If you did that you could take out or put the rotor into the need to buy category. I think you should be able to take the rotors off pretty easily. The versa ones look easier than changing the oil.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: barlowc
mechanicx... I double checked the notes/numbers to make sure I hadn't typed them into the thread wrong. That's exactly how they appear on the paperwork. The technician was the same both times. I don't know if they turned them on or off the vehicle.

mechtech2... that runout is only after 15K. The rotors have been in use for 50K, but were last turned at 35K. What does "reindexing" mean?


OK the numbers make no sense as I explained and sound made up. If you had only .0011 run out assuming that's measured while the rotors are installed on the hub, that would be dang good for a new car rolling off an assembly line and would not cause problems. anything less than .002 is usually fine.

Reindexing is rotating the rotor to another position on the hub over the lug studs to find a position that gives less installed run out.

The way to fix this reoccuring problem is to have the rotors machined while installed on the car if there's enough material left for machining, or new rotors and checking installed run out with a dial indicator. Checking with a dial indicator is essential because even with good new rotors the hub may be causing too much run out. That's where indexing might help or if necesary cleaning the rotors up installed on the car.

 

[abycat]

Originally Posted By: Corvette Owner
My 2006 Nissan Murano has been very good with brakes. It went 102,000 miles with the original pads. I was so impressed that I replaced them with the OEM pads. The rotors were fine.

I've talked to other Nissan Owners and their SUVs/Trucks brakes seem to hold up a long time. I can't imagine that their cars would be that different.

Does a driver ride the brakes?


My versa pads have 35,000km on them and I cant tell the difference from them and new ones. "from the viewing window:".
And He said he does mostly highway and is very gentle so I guess that rules out heat.

Im pretty sure Lack of knowledge or not technical enough practices at the shop have cause this pain in the butt. Nissan seems to use some good parts including the consumables in there cars and suv's

The fully loaded awd 2012 murano i got for a loaner when I got my moonroof put in was a sick ride. It felt very well made and ran like a top. It only had 1000km on it but it was a neat vehicle. And it had some good power. Had to floor it a couple times

I do give the new nissan vehicles two thumbs up for sure.

 

[barlowc]

Originally Posted By: abycat
Im pretty sure Lack of knowledge or not technical enough practices at the shop have cause this pain in the butt.

I would tend to think the same. The only hole in that theory is that it doesn't account for why it happened the first time. No one would have performed any work yet; it would have come that way from the factory.

 

[abycat]

Originally Posted By: barlowc
Originally Posted By: abycat
Im pretty sure Lack of knowledge or not technical enough practices at the shop have cause this pain in the butt.

I would tend to think the same. The only hole in that theory is that it doesn't account for why it happened the first time. No one would have performed any work yet; it would have come that way from the factory.


It must have been that way from day 1. I think nissan has a 94% oops rate on what comes out of the factory. Even though they strive for 100%. The question is what is bad the rotor or the hub? You need to find that out first.

And you never changed a part so you cant rule out one or the other.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: barlowc
Originally Posted By: abycat
Im pretty sure Lack of knowledge or not technical enough practices at the shop have cause this pain in the butt.

I would tend to think the same. The only hole in that theory is that it doesn't account for why it happened the first time. No one would have performed any work yet; it would have come that way from the factory.


It's possible that through driving over roads, over tightening of lug nuts, corrosion on the hub mounting surface/rotor interface or a combination that the run out got out of spec. Let's say your car started new within run out spec but maybe close to the limit, let's say .001 to .0019. Anything over .002 can eventually lead to thickness variation wear on the rotor and pulsation. For the reasons mention the run out could drift .002 and now you are out .003-.004 and eventually pulsation develops. Your pulsation took a lot of miles to develop so it seems your run out is not extremely over spec.

edit: sorry I reread your OP and saw it happened first with 20k and this is the 3 rd occurence for some reason I thought it was first at 50K. I'm thinking the excess runout was there from the beginning. You reported the problem while under warranty and the problem was never properly fixed. I think you are entitled to this being fixed by Nissan.

 

[Danh]

While warped rotors can cause pulsation, many (most?) times it is caused by uneven deposit of brake pad material over the rotor surface. This may be why the runout was so small yet the pulsation existed.

This could be a function of pad material or, more likely, driving style. A moderately hard stop followed by a period when the car is stationary with the brakes applied is a good recipe for creating uneven deposits. If possible, under these circumstances allow the car to creep forward, putting the pads in contact with more of the rotor surface. Or put the car in neutral and take your foot off the brake. I had plenty of trouble with Acura rotors but this pretty much solved it for me.

 

[mechanicx]

I didn't originally notice that this is the 3rd occurence and it's happening every 15 k. For some reason I focused on the 2nd occurence with the wonky run out numbers thinking it was the first.

I think the problem was there from new, this dealer didn't fix it right and you should work to get Nissan to fix it. I would also try a different dealer. They had 2 tries and didn't fix it.

 

[Chris Meutsch]

My indy mechanic cuts the rotors while still on the car. It makes all the difference. It's a cool machine to see in action.

 

[ajchien]

Well, I presume each time you turn the rotors, they get thinner - so they're more likely to get runout. Anyone ever double check the torque on the lugnuts? Uneven torque AFAIK theoretically can cause them to warp?

 

[mechanicx]

If anyone is looking for shops that turn rotors on the car with a Pro-cut machine this is a search finder http://www.procutusa.com/zipfind.aspx.

It's kind of like when you have a persistent tire imbalance problem and you need to find someone with a RoadForce balancer. Sometimes you need to find the right equipment and someone with the right know-how.

 

[tightwad]

Originally Posted By: ajchien
Well, I presume each time you turn the rotors, they get thinner - so they're more likely to get runout. Anyone ever double check the torque on the lugnuts? Uneven torque AFAIK theoretically can cause them to warp?


Oh, yes. Don't let Goober use an impact wrench when he rotates your tires. Discount Tire uses torque-limited air wrenches and then final tightens with a torque wrench.

 

[Chris Meutsch]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
If anyone is looking for shops that turn rotors on the car with a Pro-cut machine this is a search finder http://www.procutusa.com/zipfind.aspx.

It's kind of like when you have a persistent tire imbalance problem and you need to find someone with a RoadForce balancer. Sometimes you need to find the right equipment and someone with the right know-how.


Yep, mine uses the Pro-Cut. And a RoadForce balancer. And they remove small stones from the tires and reset the machine each wheel, not once a day.


And yes, they are more expensive. But it matters to me.