Ever See This Sort of Thing Before: High Lift Cam has pattern in it

Cujet said:
The topic of wear in modern engines is one of those subjects..... I'm not yet convinced we have worked out the proper methods (for example coatings are one way we can get timing chain pins to live with 0W-XX oils), to allow relatively wear-free operation on many modern oils.

These coatings and/or surface treatments can be exceedingly expensive, are often a just a micron or two thick, and some hold up perfectly, right up until they don't.

We've been building reliable, high performance engines for over 100 years. The conventional tried-and-true methods are very well understood.

Unfortunately, without knowing what (if any) coating they used on the follower, I can only guess at the situation. It would be interesting to see what the wear surface looks like on the follower. Some of these coatings shed oil, and that in itself could present a problem.

Timing chain pin coatings, so 0W-16 can be safely used:



Thinking aloud here, I'd send off pictures to BMW, on the off chance that they acknowledge the issue.
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The followers have what BMW calls DLC (Diamond Like Coating).

I think what many are referring to was for the R1200 engine. Mine is mechanically related but has what BMW did to fix the admitted problem implemented : increased surface area of the followers. The link below summarizes the fix.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2021/MC-10194314-9999.pdf

Maybe they still haven’t worked out the kinks yet haha.

I have to adjust my valves in near future. I’ll have to take cams out for that and I’ll inspect the followers when I’m in there. Hopefully the dealer calls me in between now and then and says they will cover the cam (wishful thinking but a guy got to have hope).
 
twX said:
A lot of BMW motorcycle engines have had excessive cam and follower wear due to defective coating on the rocker arms. There was a TSB for this in 2019, then another in 2021 that included a new rocker design.

The issue was from poor adhesion of the diamond like coating on the rocker arms. Maybe this hard coating is getting embedded in the cam.
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Wow I missed this one you beat me to it. Thank you for the info. Perhaps you are right about the coating.
 
SubieRubyRoo said:
It’s not going to come off. You’re breaking through the induction-hardened layer which is only about .020” deep. After that, it will start to shed significant material in short order. I agree with Cujet’s assessment that you need more viscosity and more ZDDP/moly, ASAP.
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I put this oil in today:

https://www.liqui-moly.com/en/us/motorbike-4t-synth-5w-40-street-race-p000261.html#20074

In your opinion is this up to task? Should I look into additives?
 
If it is the problem that the TSB addresses, then this isn't something that can be negotiated by oil choice--take it in. Hey, you may already know that, but I gotta shoot you straight.
 
SubieRubyRoo said:
I agree with Cujet’s assessment that you need more viscosity and more ZDDP/moly, ASAP.
Click to expand...

I disagree with the call for more additives because the problem has been identified by BMW as quality differences in the adhesion of the DLC of the rocker arm which can cause the cams to wear prematurely... BMW knows that changing the oil viscosity or PPM of Zinc will not fix their bad part problem...

Understanding zinc/ ZDDP...

Zinc is used/sacrificed in very small quantities at time, so the total
amount present in your oil does not change how much wear protection
the oil provides “Wear Testing” analysis proves/confirms that more zinc provides
LONGER wear protection, NOT MORE wear protection.

Zinc“DOES NOT” build-up over time like some type of plating process.
Zinc is not even a lubricant until heat and load are applied. Zinc is only
used when there is actual metal to metal contact in the engine. At that
point zinc must react with the heat and load to create the sacrificial film
that allows it to protect rocker arms and camshafts...

There is mounting evidence that more zinc provides LONGER wear protection, NOT MORE wear protection.

1. Well known and respected Engineer and Tech Author David Vizard,
whose own test data, largely based on real world engine dyno testing,
has concluded that more zinc in motor oil can be damaging, more zinc
does NOT provide todays best wear protection

2. The GM Oil Report titled, Oil Myths from GM Techlink, concluded
that high levels of zinc are damaging and that more zinc does NOT
provide more wear protection.

3. A motor oil research article written by Ed Hackett titled, More
than you ever wanted to know about Motor Oil, concluded that more
zinc does NOT provide more wear protection, it only provides longer
wear protection.

4. This from the Brad Penn Oil Company: There is such a thing as too
much ZDDP. ZDDP is surface aggressive, and too much can be a
detriment. ZDDP fights for the surface, blocking other additive
performance. Acids generated due to excessive ZDDP contact will
tie-up detergents thus encouraging corrosive wear. ZDDP
effectiveness plateaus, more does NOT translate into more protection.
Only so much is utilized. We dont need to saturate our oil with ZDDP.
 
Any chance of warranty coverage on this machine? If not then start saving for some cams and followers so you can be prepared for riding season 2024. Sorry to say it but that thing is soon-to-be toast.
 
twX said:
A lot of BMW motorcycle engines have had excessive cam and follower wear due to defective coating on the rocker arms. There was a TSB for this in 2019, then another in 2021 that included a new rocker design.

The issue was from poor adhesion of the diamond like coating on the rocker arms. Maybe this hard coating is getting embedded in the cam.
Click to expand...
This is the kind of information that you should be presenting to the dealer and ask for the new parts to be installed for free.

If it wasn't right from the start it shouldn't cost you a penny to get it fixed.
 
FowVay said:
Any chance of warranty coverage on this machine? If not then start saving for some cams and followers so you can be prepared for riding season 2024. Sorry to say it but that thing is soon-to-be toast.
Click to expand...
Technically, I don’t think so. Looking for the manufacturer to do it in “good will”, my factory warranty ran out maybe 6 months ago. & my bike should have the updated rocker arm installed at factory so I’m not 100% sure it’s apples to apples with the document.

As I think about it, isn’t it strange that both sets of intake lobes (the high and low lift) on that cam don’t show the same wear?

My thinking : they use the same follower. Just an estimate for the reasoning ; let’s say the low lift cam is used 70% of the time.

Engine speed aside, they spend more time against a compromised follower.

You’d think they both look like that at the very least.

It is remarkable it happened to 2 followers all on the same head and the same cam, but the other 6 are golden.
 
Man that is some profile change, I am assuming engine uses finger followers given the wear pattern showing no rotation. The Metallury and treatment has to be exceptional here.
Not the first time I have seen oiling differences on bank one vs. bank two - I only have experience with old, simple two-pot R 60/5 for beemer's.
 
Zappacoop said:
I put this oil in today:

https://www.liqui-moly.com/en/us/motorbike-4t-synth-5w-40-street-race-p000261.html#20074

In your opinion is this up to task? Should I look into additives?
Click to expand...
That is clearly a very good oil and I am not implying otherwise. However if I am looking at the specs correctly, the HTHS is 3.5 (viscosity at 302ºF), just a touch lower than I like and more in line with a conventional 5W-30. As a general rule, I like HTHS over 3.8 for any performance oil. Especially when trying to prevent known problems. Your water cooled engine won't have issues with hot oil, but that's not the point, as oil can get locally hot under high loads.

My suggested oil, M1 10W-40 Motorcycle oil has an unpublished HTHS somewhere around 4.6. For even more protection, the M1 20W-50 V-Twin oil has an HTHS of 6.1. HTHS being the best indicator of an oil's real world film strength. A motorcyclist's favorite, M1, 15W-50 has an HTHS of 4.5 and would also be an oil I'd choose.

Additives won't solve the issue when viscosity (oil film) can't do the job. They are only there as a backup. Put another way, while BMW may have coating problems, clearly the oil is allowing metal to metal contact.
 
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ARCOgraphite said:
Not the first time I have seen oiling differences on bank one vs. bank two
Click to expand...
It really is remarkable how that happens. Time and again, early failures are concentrated in one area, such as the forward RH intake cam lobe of a DOHC V8 and it is often oiling related. Sometimes an increase in viscosity provides better oiling, by reducing oil "escapes" related to clearances or poor sealing elsewhere in the engine, and thereby providing proper flow to the lobe in question. Ford's 5.4L 3V engine is a great example of this.
 
I wonder if the cams are DLC too?

I thought it was generally accepted in the hot rod / performance world that DLC followers shouldn't be run on a non-dlc cam because DLC is very hard like errrr diamonds LOL. Though they really aren't that common.

You're there touching it but that lobe under the "02" on the head looks failed and the other one doesn't look far behind in the picture, id be pretty worried about that honestly. Please let us know what the mothership says.
 
Zappacoop said:
Technically, I don’t think so. Looking for the manufacturer to do it in “good will”, my factory warranty ran out maybe 6 months ago. & my bike should have the updated rocker arm installed at factory so I’m not 100% sure it’s apples to apples with the document.

As I think about it, isn’t it strange that both intake lobes (the high and low lift) don’t show the same wear?

My thinking : they use the same follower. Just an estimate for the reasoning ; let’s say the low lift cam is used 70% of the time.

Engine speed aside, it spends more time against the same compromised follower.

You’d think they both look like that at the very least.
Click to expand...
DuckRyder said:
I wonder if the cams are DLC too?

I thought it was generally accepted in the hot rod / performance world that DLC followers shouldn't be run on a non-dlc cam because DLC is very hard like errrr diamonds LOL. Though they really aren't that common.

You're there touching it but that lobe under the "02" on the head looks failed and the other one doesn't look far behind in the picture, id be pretty worried about that honestly. Please let us know what the mothership says.
Click to expand...
I was told the cams are not DLC just hardened.

Don’t follow what you mean by the “02”? Which can lobe?

If anyone has any pointers on dealing with dealerships/manufacturers in soliciting a warrantee claim, I’m all ears. First time for me and I’m sweating it
 
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