EV fire fighting tech ... interesting product

[JHZR2]

The formation of pesky ron Jeremy dendrites.
Oh and don't forget the anode is made of coal which you know...

The dendrite pierces the first separator. That is the root cause of many failures (not all).

But once a cell goes up, the rest aren’t due to dendrites, the separators melt.

Don’t confuse initial root cause with subsequent propagation.

The anode is made generally of graphite. Both electrodes use a carbon powder bound to the electrodes. Makes a mess but dubious it contributes much to the energetics of the failure.

 

[PimTac]

Li-ion batteries are tight packed and the cells are hard to access. When one goes up, the heat will transfer to nearest neighbors and on and on. Regardless of if there’s a fire, remember that as the cells short internally, a massive amount of electric energy is removed and goes to heating neighbor cells. That’s why it will continue onward. You could inert the local area with co2 or halon and the heat would still be there. As soon as ambient oxygen creeps in, fire will flare again. But cells will keep cooking off in the interim.

Funny you mentioned this because I thought of halon last night. The ship I was on had a halon system in the engine room. The word was that anyone in there when the system activated would be dead from lack of oxygen.

Do they still have halon for fire suppression systems? Probably too expensive for a homeowner.

 

[4WD]

Funny you mentioned this because I thought of halon last night. The ship I was on had a halon system in the engine room. The word was that anyone in there when the system activated would be dead from lack of oxygen.

Do they still have halon for fire suppression systems? Probably too expensive for a homeowner.

CO2 is also used for suppression
SCBA must be available

Appears the EV battery will provide oxygen
That’s a big problem plus the toxic environment overall …

Fixed battery stories to follow

 

[alarmguy]

Funny you mentioned this because I thought of halon last night. The ship I was on had a halon system in the engine room. The word was that anyone in there when the system activated would be dead from lack of oxygen.

Do they still have halon for fire suppression systems? Probably too expensive for a homeowner.

Funny, in past years I had two boats (different times) one with a factory Halon system, and the one before that I installed myself.
Halon is nice because it's not messy and very effective.

Problem being from what I understand you can not starve a lithium fire from oxygen because the lithium when burning creates its own oxygen. Truly a self sustaining fire.
This is why it takes thousands of gallons of water to cool the batteries down enough to the point that they do no continue to burn. (best I understand it) Oh, wait! The story brings up Halon and Water to fight it!

https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operation...tteries/dangers-lithium-battery-fires-flight/

It's an interesting subject and surprisingly no firm consensus on anything but water. Halon is mentioned but VERY expensive, way more so than years ago. I dont know why the cost is prohibitive but I was looking for a small unit for our small boat should I decide to kept it and start exploring off shore a little bit..

Here is more than I care to know but one thing most detailed reports say is the self sustaining ignition when thermal runaway happens and always seem to come back to water cooling...
https://publications.iafss.org/publications/fss/8/375/view

 

[y_p_w]

Funny, in past years I had two boats (different times) one with a factory Halon system, and the one before that I installed myself.
Halon is nice because it's not messy and very effective.

Problem being from what I understand you can not starve a lithium fire from oxygen because the lithium when burning creates its own oxygen. Truly a self sustaining fire.
This is why it takes thousands of gallons of water to cool the batteries down enough to the point that they do no continue to burn. (best I understand it) Oh, wait! The story brings up Halon and Water to fight it!

https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operation...tteries/dangers-lithium-battery-fires-flight/

Obviously water doesn't really put out lithium battery fires.

Still - the oxygen still has to be released as atmospheric oxygen. It can still be starved of oxygen. Electronic repair shops that deal with bad lithium-ion batteries typically have a sand bucket somewhere to smother devices or batteries. Even regular ABC fire extinguishers can handle it, but obviously an iPhone is much smaller than a Tesla.

https://ehrs.upenn.edu/sites/default/files/2017-12/Lithium Battery Safety Program 2017-1.pdf​

1. Secondary batteries are rechargeable. Unlike primary lithium batteries, secondary lithium batteries do not contain metallic lithium, they contain an intercalated lithium compound where lithium ions move back and forth between the battery anode and cathode during discharging and charging. Fires involving secondary lithium-ion or lithium-polymer secondary batteries can be extinguished with a traditional ABC- type fire extinguisher or smothered with a material such as sand.

 

[SHOZ]

You cannot put out battery fires. You either have to break it up and bust it into tiny pieces to isolate the pos and neg material or just wait it out. They are chemical fires and do not need added heat or oxygen from the environment for combustion.

 

[demarpaint]

You cannot put out battery fires. You either have to break it up and bust it into tiny pieces to isolate the pos and neg material or just wait it out. They are chemical fires and do not need added heat or oxygen from the environment for combustion.

Add to my list of not ready for prime time. Yea I know all about ICE cars going on fire, and the "statistics" the EV proponents often quote. I question the accuracy, but that's not the topic here. After reading this, seeing videos of the fires, and knowing a few NYC Firemen who actually put out Lithium battery fires I scratch my head wondering about this technology and the giant push. Maybe part of the development of the EV should have included figuring out a way to extinguish an EV fire, then making it available to the people who have to put those fires out. Poor planning imo. Flame suit on.....

 

[y_p_w]

You cannot put out battery fires. You either have to break it up and bust it into tiny pieces to isolate the pos and neg material or just wait it out. They are chemical fires and do not need added heat or oxygen from the environment for combustion.

There are ways to deal with it - at least to mitigate. It was mentioned that water can help cool a fire to reduce the runaway effect. I mentioned sand, but another way is copper infused water.

https://www.tn.gov/environment/prog...copper material can,and makes the fire worse.​

A large Li-ion fire, such as one caused by an electric vehicle, may need to burn out, as water is ineffective. Water with copper material can be used, but this may not be available and is costly for fire departments. When encountering a fire with a lithium-metal battery, only use a Class D fire extinguisher. Lithium-metal contains lithium that reacts with water and makes the fire worse. Only use the Class D fire extinguisher on lithium fires. All fires should be handled by professionals who are trained to fight fires.​

 

[JHZR2]

Funny you mentioned this because I thought of halon last night. The ship I was on had a halon system in the engine room. The word was that anyone in there when the system activated would be dead from lack of oxygen.

Do they still have halon for fire suppression systems? Probably too expensive for a homeowner.

Halon doesn’t work for li-ion. It will displace oxygen, and is still used for damage control in some ship spaces.

For home use halotron is a less harmful option. But any of these, or co2, etc will displace oxygen and kill anyone in a space.

 

[PimTac]

Add to my list of not ready for prime time. Yea I know all about ICE cars going on fire, and the "statistics" the EV proponents often quote. I question the accuracy, but that's not the topic here. After reading this, seeing videos of the fires, and knowing a few NYC Firemen who actually put out Lithium battery fires I scratch my head wondering about this technology and the giant push. Maybe part of the development of the EV should have included figuring out a way to extinguish an EV fire, then making it available to the people who have to put those fires out. Poor planning imo. Flame suit on.....

This crash happened near me a while back. The driver died.

The fire was so intense it required the city to repave that section of the street plus repair that corner. Looking at the video the utility pole held up well.

 

[demarpaint]

This crash happened near me a while back. The driver died.

The fire was so intense it required the city to repave that section of the street plus repair that corner. Looking at the video the utility pole held up well.

Tragic, we had one out east a few months back and everyone in the car burned to death.

 

[meep]

Funny, in past years I had two boats (different times) one with a factory Halon system, and the one before that I installed myself.
Halon is nice because it's not messy and very effective.

Problem being from what I understand you can not starve a lithium fire from oxygen because the lithium when burning creates its own oxygen. Truly a self sustaining fire.
This is why it takes thousands of gallons of water to cool the batteries down enough to the point that they do no continue to burn. (best I understand it) Oh, wait! The story brings up Halon and Water to fight it!

https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operation...tteries/dangers-lithium-battery-fires-flight/

It's an interesting subject and surprisingly no firm consensus on anything but water. Halon is mentioned but VERY expensive, way more so than years ago. I dont know why the cost is prohibitive but I was looking for a small unit for our small boat should I decide to kept it and start exploring off shore a little bit..

Here is more than I care to know but one thing most detailed reports say is the self sustaining ignition when thermal runaway happens and always seem to come back to water cooling...
https://publications.iafss.org/publications/fss/8/375/view

I’ve been in a room with a halon release. It is fast and violent. It’s loud, it immediately clouds (condensation clouding, not chemical), you can’t see anything, and anything not bolted down sails through the air. The volume of sound is unbelievable, painful, and the inner pressure makes it hard to pull a door open. It is fully released in 20 seconds. in my case it was a construction accident. I held my breath and ran as I fought my way out.

halon isn’t manufactured anymore but there have been several replacements. “Sapphire” was a big deal as a replacement years ago and I’m pretty sure that has been replaced by now. The refill costs for these systems was in the 5 digit range, back when I knew something about this.

 

[JimPghPA]

How about an automatic giant ram coupled with fire detection, and ability to open the garage door.


Push the vehicle out of the garage and clear of the building if it is on fire.

 

[PandaBear]

How about an automatic giant ram coupled with fire detection, and ability to open the garage door.


Push the vehicle out of the garage and clear of the building if it is on fire.

It would be so complicated nobody would do it. I think most people would have extra home insurance and detector / alarm instead.

 

[JHZR2]

There are ways to deal with it - at least to mitigate. It was mentioned that water can help cool a fire to reduce the runaway effect. I mentioned sand, but another way is copper infused water.

https://www.tn.gov/environment/prog...copper material can,and makes the fire worse.​

A large Li-ion fire, such as one caused by an electric vehicle, may need to burn out, as water is ineffective. Water with copper material can be used, but this may not be available and is costly for fire departments. When encountering a fire with a lithium-metal battery, only use a Class D fire extinguisher. Lithium-metal contains lithium that reacts with water and makes the fire worse. Only use the Class D fire extinguisher on lithium fires. All fires should be handled by professionals who are trained to fight fires.​

Water isnt ineffective, it just can’t get deep into the pack. It’s still the best bet.

Need to be sure we aren’t mixing lithium metal and lithium ion battery fires, as they’re different beasts as you note. Some of the new tech is rechargeable lithium metal, which should be great fun when we have a safety incident…

 

[y_p_w]

Water isnt ineffective, it just can’t get deep into the pack. It’s still the best bet.

Need to be sure we aren’t mixing lithium metal and lithium ion battery fires, as they’re different beasts as you note. Some of the new tech is rechargeable lithium metal, which should be great fun when we have a safety incident…

I get that there are special considerations for putting out lithium metal batteries, like lithium-manganese dioxide coin cells. I do remember cameras and other devices used to use small cylindrical lithium batteries. And those AA/AAA lithium primary batteries.

 

[Lapham3]

It seems that until industry gets to some better way to deal with this, the cars need to be outside and some distance from anything.

 

[Opelman]

https://www.valleycenter.com/articles/fire-burns-tonight-at-terragen-battery-storage/
This happened down the street from where I used to work. There are 2 schools within a mile to the north, one is in the evacuation zone. Another school about 4 miles east. Child daycare facility even closer than the schools. All of this in an area that has experienced 2 large devastating wildfires within the last 20 years. There was some local resistance to this project due to the fire concern. It looks as if the design used to minimize the spread of fire worked as designed. Australia has had several fires in battery facilities like this also. The technology doesn't quite seem ready for prime time but I'm sure lessons will be learned and improvements implemented.

 

[Pablo]

So this happens daily?

Does it actually happen during charging? How often? Frequency is important.

I've been dealing with LiFePO4 and LiCoO2 batteries for bikes from three different sellers for years now, some of the earliest (2013ish??) flat cells were extremely sketchy yes they were LiFePO4. Most all forms were duct taped ultra power dense rectangles and triangles. Charge the heck out of them. Use them hard. Sometimes cells died.

Never once was there a fire or uncontrolled release of energy with any type.

I'm not saying they can't be dangerous and the fires are rapid and nasty, but wow some of the experts here are way way over the top.

 

[oil pan 4]

I get that there are special considerations for putting out lithium metal batteries, like lithium-manganese dioxide coin cells. I do remember cameras and other devices used to use small cylindrical lithium batteries. And those AA/AAA lithium primary batteries.

I have burned those lithium AA cells, very anticlimatic. They just kind of burned.