EV charging example costs more than it would to fill up a premium fuel car

[Astro_Guy]

I don't think people understand you can program your car to charge at a lower current or delay charging start time if they have only been using gas cars.

I don't mean to be critical but I do believe that you California folks should have a critical look at the realities of time of use metering. Unlike where I live your grid scale utility costs are higher at night. See https://www.gridstatus.io/live/caiso

This may or may not reflect the way you are billed. My money is on "does not reflect."

 

[PandaBear]

I don't mean to be critical but I do believe that you California folks should have a critical look at the realities of time of use metering. Unlike where I live your grid scale utility costs are higher at night. See https://www.gridstatus.io/live/caiso

This may or may not reflect the way you are billed. My money is on "does not reflect."

I have been following caiso and PG&E's TOU plan.

The "higher cost at night" is wrong. The highest cost is 4pm-9pm duck curve hours. 12am-6am is the cheapest time and people with EV should always charge at that time unless they are too low and need the charge asap.

Biggest cost in electricity is rural grid power line fires. PG&E lost their cases and they basically need to charge double to pay for their damages in those wild fires.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I don't think people understand you can program your car to charge at a lower current or delay charging start time if they have only been using gas cars.

So yeah, you can charge slower by using 1/2 as much current on 2 cars, or delay starting of charging between 2 cars so each take full current for half the time. Even if you can't do that with an existing car, a programmable timer or a smart switch is pretty cheap these days.

The main point though, is most people only need to charge enough miles for their daily commute, regardless of how big your battery or how many EVs you have. If you have 4 EVs and only 2 drivers you only need to charge their daily commutes. If you have 2 EVs with double range battery you are still only going to charge their daily commutes. This is like having double the amount of propane tanks in the backyard does not mean you will BBQ twice as often, or 2x as many bathrooms in your house means you will pee twice as often.

When you 1st get an EV, you have the dreaded range anxiety; you plug in as soon as you get home. Nowadays, I charge every couple of days.

 

[Astro_Guy]

I have been following caiso and PG&E's TOU plan.

The "higher cost at night" is wrong. The highest cost is 4pm-9pm duck curve hours. 12am-6am is the cheapest time and people with EV should always charge at that time unless they are too low and need the charge asap.

Biggest cost in electricity is rural grid power line fires. PG&E lost their cases and they basically need to charge double to pay for their damages in those wild fires.

It's always a pleasure to have a discussion with someone who is well informed. From what I have seen your grid relies on a lot of expensive imported power at night whereas mine is dominated by nuclear. Your grid is totally dominated by solar during the day. You would think that the TOU rates would reflect that.

 

[OVERKILL]

It's always a pleasure to have a discussion with someone who is well informed. From what I have seen your grid relies on a lot of expensive imported power at night whereas mine is dominated by nuclear. Your grid is totally dominated by solar during the day. You would think that the TOU rates would reflect that.

Most solar in Cali is on NEM1 or NEM2, which pays like $0.35-$0.45/kWh, which drives mid-day supply costs up, while the market price tanks due to surplus. It's a rather screwy arrangement.

 

[JeffKeryk]

It's always a pleasure to have a discussion with someone who is well informed. From what I have seen your grid relies on a lot of expensive imported power at night whereas mine is dominated by nuclear. Your grid is totally dominated by solar during the day. You would think that the TOU rates would reflect that.

It is based on demand. Regardless, electricity is crazy expensive in Silicon Valley. I installed solar in March 2018 after researching the project for 3+ years. I pay about $10 per month for electricity. Biggest no-brainer in the world. Kinda funny, the PG&E plan is now NEM3; to make it worthwhile you need a battery so the project cost (and break even point) are much more. Sometimes you get lucky.

 

[UncleDave]

It's always a pleasure to have a discussion with someone who is well informed. From what I have seen your grid relies on a lot of expensive imported power at night whereas mine is dominated by nuclear. Your grid is totally dominated by solar during the day. You would think that the TOU rates would reflect that.

PG&Es tou do reflect solar heavily - I think it starts at noon, and definately calls it quits at 4PM you go right into "peak" from 4-9. thats as high as .75 all in now on some plans.

 

[Ws6]

Luckily, the sun is still free.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Luckily, the sun is still free.

Yeah, and after you break even on your solar project investment, that big nuclear reactor in the sky you can save a bunch!
I rarely ran the house AC unless we had guests. Now, who cares?
Replace $4.50 gas with free fuel and bring home the groceries. Los Gatos averages over 330 sunny days per year and the panels produce on cloudy days as well.

 

[Ws6]

Yeah, and after you break even on your solar project investment, that big nuclear reactor in the sky you can save a bunch!
I rarely ran the house AC unless we had guests. Now, who cares?
Replace $4.50 gas with free fuel and bring home the groceries. Los Gatos averages over 330 sunny days per year and the panels produce on cloudy days as well.

I broke even the day it was installed, nearly. Net loss is $1300/year, technically, since I didn't roll the tax credit into it. Had I, net zero. That said, in 20 years I own it. In 20 years without it, I own nothing. No brainer.trainer.

*this assumes rates dont rise or drop.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I broke even the day it was installed, nearly. Net loss is $1300/year, technically, since I didn't roll the tax credit into it. Had I, net zero. That said, in 20 years I own it. In 20 years without it, I own nothing. No brainer.trainer.

*this assumes rates dont rise or drop.

Sorry, I don't understand your numbers.

 

[Ws6]

Sorry, I don't understand your numbers.

If it saves as much as it costs per month...

 

[BillyHW]

People used to say this about cars when the world moved from horses to cars.

Please stop making things up.

 

[Ws6]

Please stop making things up.

It's more true than you think. Auto-makers literally created a way to put you in an actual prison, technically.
https://www.vox.com/2015/1/15/7551873/jaywalking-history

 

[JeffKeryk]

If it saves as much as it costs per month...

So you got a loan over x amount of years? I paid cash and am way past break even. So the net savings is huge going forward regardless of electricity cost. Unless it's free, I guess.

 

[alarmguy]

I broke even the day it was installed, nearly. Net loss is $1300/year, technically, since I didn't roll the tax credit into it. Had I, net zero. That said, in 20 years I own it. In 20 years without it, I own nothing. No brainer.trainer.

*this assumes rates dont rise or drop.

It works out for many people if they plan but even then, many people do not know when they will move and the median time an American stays in any one home is 13 years that is an all time high that peaked at Covid. Of course it depends on the price of electricity as well. So pretty much in a low cost electric area many would never recover the cost.

Since I love electronics I would like to have a few panels on the roof as they could be positioned on the side of a HIP roof and barely seen but I would never see any return on them paying 10 Cents kWr 24/7 Then there is the messy part of putting holes in my roof.
If your younger and stay a long time, it might make your house look old as the panels deteriorate (hopefully a new roof at the same time as the panels) also keeping in mind, todays panels will look like relics in 20+ years as new technology makes them look like roof shingles. But the key here is, in low electric cost areas your home stands out like a sore thumb if you have solar on your roof. On our roof though, it would work as the south side is the side of the house on a hip roof.

2010 that number was 8 years median, 2015 11 years

 

[JeffKeryk]

It works out for many people if they plan but even then, many people do not know when they will move and the median time an American stays in any one home is 13 years that is an all time high that peaked at Covid. Of course it depends on the price of electricity as well. So pretty much in a low cost electric area many would never recover the cost.

Solar increases the value of your home around here. Having said that, you don't buy a house here, you buy a zip code.

 

[alarmguy]

Solar increases the value of your home around here. .../

Most likely any place in CA with Pacific!

 

[Ws6]

It works out for many people if they plan but even then, many people do not know when they will move and the median time an American stays in any one home is 13 years that is an all time high that peaked at Covid. Of course it depends on the price of electricity as well. So pretty much in a low cost electric area many would never recover the cost.

Since I love electronics I would like to have a few panels on the roof as they could be positioned on the side of a HIP roof and barely seen but I would never see any return on them paying 10 Cents kWr 24/7 Then there is the messy part of putting holes in my roof.
If your younger and stay a long time, it might make your house look old as the panels deteriorate (hopefully a new roof at the same time as the panels) also keeping in mind, todays panels will look like relics in 20+ years as new technology makes them look like roof shingles. But the key here is, in low electric cost areas your home stands out like a sore thumb if you have solar on your roof. On our roof though, it would work as the south side is the side of the house on a hip roof.

2010 that number was 8 years median, 2015 11 years

Electricity is a 12 cent/kw delivered price in my area.
My electric bill dropped significantly, to where including payments for the system, I am at net -$1300/year. If I had taken the tax credit and put it toward the loan instead of other investments, it would be net $0. Sure, I am still paying on the system, but it will be paid off in 20 years (from the start of the loan, more like 16, now), but then, electricity may well rise before then, too, and even if it doesn't, the next decade of warrantied performance (and into the beyond?) will more than pay for the system.

My panels are rated at 19% efficiency. They were "good panels" when I bought them, but not "Peak performance!". I think back then peak performance was a bit over 20%. Now we have 24-25% performance. The days of rapidly evolving panel performance are over unless we go to mono-wafers, but those are stoopid expensive and will likely remain NASA only.

 

[Ws6]

So you got a loan over x amount of years? I paid cash and am way past break even. So the net savings is huge going forward regardless of electricity cost. Unless it's free, I guess.

20 year fixed at 2.99%. My credit cards earn me half of that, and a savings account makes double that nearly, lol