Europe has fallen behind America and the gap is growing

[fdcg27]

We should consider that the EU and the UK are in recession while the US is not.
We should also consider that to the extent demography matters, which it certainly does, EU plus UK population is both aging and declining, while that of the US is not, largely due to immigration legal and not.
The role of the dollar as the world's reserve currency also matters a lot, but it should be remembered that our fathers paid for that status in blood.
What if the US had said in 1939 that while Hitler may be a nasty fellow, he's your problem and we will not become involved?
We'll take care of Japan as a naval threat in the Pacific, but why should we care about their conquest of China and Korea?
We lived then in a continental nation not seriously threatened directly by either Germany or Japan and could have simply walked away.

 

[Wrenchturner44]

What is your effective rate in the states (ignoring sales tax)?

I am not sure that you can ignore sales tax at the state level. States that have no income tax usually have higher sales and property taxes.

 

[brianl703]

I am not sure that you can ignore sales tax at the state level. States that have no income tax usually have higher sales and property taxes.

States that have a low real property tax, like Virginia, make up for it with a high personal property (vehicle) tax.

 

[Ahausheer]

I am not sure that you can ignore sales tax at the state level. States that have no income tax usually have higher sales and property taxes.

You can't, but it complicates the issue of comparing effective US tax rates to the EU so much so I decided to not even try to factor it in. The point is that once you factor in healthcare and possibly school loans, people in the US, in states with income tax at least, pay similar (albeit lower) taxes than most in the EU. Many Americans think taxes in the EU are much more of an actual burden than they are, and they often default to a false believe that a slightly or even moderately higher total tax rate is some sort of indicator that life is hell over here when it really isn't. Other things in society adjust somewhat, so you can't envision an american life with taxes at EU levels, and think it corresponds to actually living in the EU and having EU taxes (not sure if I am stating that clearly). I would bet that most people in California and NY, the two places that largely buoy the US economy, pay total tax rates at very similar rates to the average person in the EU once you factor in healthcare and school loans (where applicable). My out of pocket healthcare costs in the US, after all doctors fees and employers contribution, amounted to nearly 10% of my income. Thats a big cost that is included in EU taxes, but not in US taxes and many in the US don't factor that in when comparing tax rates.

 

[fdcg27]

You can't, but it complicates the issue of comparing effective US tax rates to the EU so much so I decided to not even try to factor it in. The point is that once you factor in healthcare and possibly school loans, people in the US, in states with income tax at least, pay similar (albeit lower) taxes than most in the EU. Many Americans think taxes in the EU are much more of an actual burden than they are, and they often default to a false believe that a slightly or even moderately higher total tax rate is some sort of indicator that life is hell over here when it really isn't. Other things in society adjust somewhat, so you can't envision an american life with taxes at EU levels, and think it corresponds to actually living in the EU and having EU taxes (not sure if I am stating that clearly). I would bet that most people in California and NY, the two places that largely buoy the US economy, pay total tax rates at very similar rates to the average person in the EU once you factor in healthcare and school loans (where applicable). My out of pocket healthcare costs in the US, after all doctors fees and employers contribution, amounted to nearly 10% of my income. Thats a big cost that is included in EU taxes, but not in US taxes and many in the US don't factor that in when comparing tax rates.

Plus, EU cities have good public transit options, unlike most of ours here and are full of lovely old buildings which predate the founding of our republic in which people actually live and work.
It is a real treat to visit any European city and see really old structures still in daily use and not merely reserved as attractions.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

What in the cornbread heck does the District of Columbia "Produce" in terms of goods and useable services??

Lobbyist and corporations.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

We should consider that the EU and the UK are in recession while the US is not.
We should also consider that to the extent demography matters, which it certainly does, EU plus UK population is both aging and declining, while that of the US is not, largely due to immigration legal and not.
The role of the dollar as the world's reserve currency also matters a lot, but it should be remembered that our fathers paid for that status in blood.
What if the US had said in 1939 that while Hitler may be a nasty fellow, he's your problem and we will not become involved?
We'll take care of Japan as a naval threat in the Pacific, but why should we care about their conquest of China and Korea?
We lived then in a continental nation not seriously threatened directly by either Germany or Japan and could have simply walked away.

Okay lets be real. The US benefited from geography as its industrial base was untouchable. In addition although the US in the early 1930's had gone off the gold standard and outlawed convertibility (Executive Order 6102) it still sat on huge gold reserves. Post WW2 Allied countries and Germany were in desperate need of capital to rebuild so while sitting on tonnes of gold and having a fully intact industrial base the US made them an offer which they couldn't refuse.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

You can't, but it complicates the issue of comparing effective US tax rates to the EU so much so I decided to not even try to factor it in. The point is that once you factor in healthcare and possibly school loans, people in the US, in states with income tax at least, pay similar (albeit lower) taxes than most in the EU. Many Americans think taxes in the EU are much more of an actual burden than they are, and they often default to a false believe that a slightly or even moderately higher total tax rate is some sort of indicator that life is hell over here when it really isn't. Other things in society adjust somewhat, so you can't envision an american life with taxes at EU levels, and think it corresponds to actually living in the EU and having EU taxes (not sure if I am stating that clearly). I would bet that most people in California and NY, the two places that largely buoy the US economy, pay total tax rates at very similar rates to the average person in the EU once you factor in healthcare and school loans (where applicable). My out of pocket healthcare costs in the US, after all doctors fees and employers contribution, amounted to nearly 10% of my income. Thats a big cost that is included in EU taxes, but not in US taxes and many in the US don't factor that in when comparing tax rates.

The largest difference between the US and Europe is that in the US access to almost all forms of medical care is only limited by the ability to pay rather than capacity to provide. For example I have a friend who moved back to France and her father just had a stroke a couple of weeks ago but because his symptoms didn't present as a stroke per the guidelines set by the state system they sent him home to go see is doctor the next day. For the next 12 hours with bleeding in the brain her father had become verbally nonresponsive at which point his doctor was able to immediately authorize additional testing and surgery. In the US that time lag would never happen.

 

[brianl703]

The largest difference between the US and Europe is that in the US access to almost all forms of medical care is only limited by the ability to pay

The guy I know on medicaid has NO problem getting all forms of medical care. I'd estimate that the cost of his medical care so far (at age 47) is north of $2 million, including his multiple surgeries and ER visits, and the prescriptions he gets filled and doesn't take (he loves the Dilaudid, though, and goes through a 30-day supply in less than 15 days).

At one point he was on something like 20 different medications. Well, he had prescriptions for them, anyway. He wasn't taking most of them.

 

[Ahausheer]

The largest difference between the US and Europe is that in the US access to almost all forms of medical care is only limited by the ability to pay rather than capacity to provide. For example I have a friend who moved back to France and her father just had a stroke a couple of weeks ago but because his symptoms didn't present as a stroke per the guidelines set by the state system they sent him home to go see is doctor the next day. For the next 12 hours with bleeding in the brain her father had become verbally nonresponsive at which point his doctor was able to immediately authorize additional testing and surgery. In the US that time lag would never happen.

Well said in your first sentence and I agree. I also know quite a few with similar experiences here in Sweden (missed stroke diagnosis included). Although to be fair in the US I have come across a shocking number of incompetent docs too. Over diagnosing, and over prescribing is also a serious issue in the US. Hell I had to diagnose my own tumor because 3 (US) docs missed it in my blood work. My surgeon literally sent my primary a picture after he cut it out because he was annoyed. Separately, it might be valuable to point out that one thing that I think goes past some people in the US, is that the health outcomes are generally better in the EU despite seemingly lower quality of care, and that does say something about US society and perhaps highlights areas for improvement. The US has less healthy people but excellent care for those that pay when they do get ill, whereas the EU in general (not looking at you Spain/Italy) has healthier people but lower quality of care. I can also say from experience that not worrying as much about the the large medical bills I had in the US (yes I know I pay for them via higher taxes here), does seem to lower my overall background stress levels a little. Having lived in both places (US and Sweden) I would encourage people from both places to try to learn from one another, and get away from the idea that any one system is better to the point of summarily invalidating the other.

 

[Ahausheer]

The guy I know on medicaid has NO problem getting all forms of medical care. I'd estimate that the cost of his medical care so far (at age 47) is north of $2 million, including his multiple surgeries and ER visits, and the prescriptions he gets filled and doesn't take (he loves the Dilaudid, though, and goes through a 30-day supply in less than 15 days).

At one point he was on something like 20 different medications. Well, he had prescriptions for them, anyway. He wasn't taking most of them.

A good endorsement for single payer care it sounds like. Which I agree with, even though I don't think it will work in the US.

 

[brianl703]

A good endorsement for single payer care it sounds like. Which I agree with, even though I don't think it will work in the US.

I think the guy is a hypochondriac and/or has some other psych problem (an opioid addiction at the least) and it's not getting addressed. Definitely an example of a problem with medicaid.

 

[Ahausheer]

I think the guy is a hypochondriac and/or has some other psych problem (an opioid addiction at the least) and it's not getting addressed. Definitely an example of a problem with medicaid.

Opioid addiction and lack of addressing it is not limited to medicaid and not any more or less likely to be address via your average HMO/PPO. It's more of a societal issue, and I say this with a parent that used to go through a gram of morphine in 24 hours a not die.

 

[Jetronic]

As a "highly educated person under 60" who loves VISITING Europe for the food and the experience please don't look too much beyond the visit. I'm always happy to come home to the US and it always makes me feel a new found appreciation for home.

But the same is also true in my case, I spent a lot of time in the US and prefer to be in Europe.

 

[brianl703]

Opioid addiction and lack of addressing it is not limited to medicaid and not any more or less likely to be address via your average HMO/PPO. It's more of a societal issue, and I say this with a parent that used to go through a gram of morphine in 24 hours a not die.

The guy was put on long-term opioid therapy. He had none of the indications for that, such as cancer pain. That's how he became an addict.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Well said in your first sentence and I agree. I also know quite a few with similar experiences here in Sweden (missed stroke diagnosis included). Although to be fair in the US I have come across a shocking number of incompetent docs too. Over diagnosing, and over prescribing is also a serious issue in the US. Hell I had to diagnose my own tumor because 3 (US) docs missed it in my blood work. My surgeon literally sent my primary a picture after he cut it out because he was annoyed. Separately, it might be valuable to point out that one thing that I think goes past some people in the US, is that the health outcomes are generally better in the EU despite seemingly lower quality of care, and that does say something about US society and perhaps highlights areas for improvement. The US has less healthy people but excellent care for those that pay when they do get ill, whereas the EU in general (not looking at you Spain/Italy) has healthier people but lower quality of care. I can also say from experience that not worrying as much about the the large medical bills I had in the US (yes I know I pay for them via higher taxes here), does seem to lower my overall background stress levels a little. Having lived in both places (US and Sweden) I would encourage people from both places to try to learn from one another, and get away from the idea that any one system is better to the point of summarily invalidating the other.

I would say EU care is lower quality it's just that the system is designed around budgeted capacity. Both systems ratio care, the mechanism of how it's accomplished is different. I also think it's worth mentioning that private insurance is becoming more popular in the EU area. I also think its extremely difficult to compare countries which have wide disparities in terms of population, density, culture and demographics. Especially so when they use differing thresholds/definitions when it comes to accumulating statistical data.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

A good endorsement for single payer care it sounds like. Which I agree with, even though I don't think it will work in the US.

Single payer would never work in the US because MD's won't take the pay cut, medical schools won't reduce their cost of education, and the AMA will scaremonger the people into believing anyone but a MD can see you.. You then run into problems with rationing of care (i.e. wait times) as capacity is maximized by the population. The US system is broken and it has been broken for over 100 years.

 

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

Wow, you got me wrong. I actually moved out of the US to a very rural extremely small town where I am more I charge of my own life. For example, I literally have a freezer full of moose meat shot by a relative, and will eat it with home harvested potatoes (enough to last many months) and wash it down with smoothie of personally picked blueberries (also enough for a few months). But don't get the idea this is all I eat, that would be insane.

I am just pointing out that many people compare US tax rates incorrectly to EU tax rates. If you want to make a fair comparison, take what your employer pays for your healthcare every year and add that to your taxes, then recalculate your effective tax rate. Using this more fair comparison, it is probably a lot closer to the average in the EU and most americans don't realize this. My point about student loans is that they are a real thing and many young americans have very high monthly payments, For that group, they should also include much of their loans if they wanted to do a reasonable tax comparison.

You must be in complete disagreement with Social Security, Medicare/medicaid, and the VA because that's all socialized, and per capita, those programs combined spend multiple times more per person on healthcare than any other country by far. You must also be pretty isolated because many countries in the EU have a much higher quality of life, a lower debt to GDP, and far better health than the overweight diabetic US that is running on debt it won't be able to pay back. If you want to climb a corporate ladder or get fat and have relatively little vacation time, the US is ahead, but if you want true quality of life, the EU is miles ahead.

No, I didn't got you wrong.

1. Not my problem ignorant, media-believing people are loading themselves up with $100k, $200k and more of student loans. Realize that a huge majority of students loans paid for kids living in luxurious apartments, eating Chipotle 6-8 times a week and dining out at white tablecloth establishments several times a month.

2. Your thinking about healthcare and health insurance and who should/does pay for that is whacked. Whacked.

3. Yes, I despise 7.65% of my earnings taken from me and my employer being forced to pay 7.65% of my earnings into a socialized pyramid scheme. Do you have any idea what 15.5% of someone's life earnings could do if invested into several different sectors across 40 years? I assure you that you'd have a better system than $1800/mo in a check that can be taxed if you decide to work more at Publix and bag groceries to pay your power bill to charge your EV.... and the healthcare system would be 100X better than medicare.

 

[Hillbilly Deluxe]

Lobbyist and corporations.

Exactly.

 

[PWMDMD]

But the same is also true in my case, I spent a lot of time in the US and prefer to be in Europe.

That's the beauty of travel for me. I go have some adventures and see how other people live while simultaneously realizing my home is really pretty good.