ethylene vs propylene glycol anti-freeze

[satterfi]

msparks

I don't believe it. Both sites you posted are trying to sell you the stuff.

I don't see any thermodynamic properties that suggests 100% propylene glycol is a better heat transfer fluid than 50/50 mixtures of ethylene glycol or propylene glycol.

Evans NPG smells like BS.

I don’t see any data on either of the web sites you posted the shows heat transfer is better with NPG versus regular coolant of any type or even water for that matter.

I think you're just screwing with me. You can't possibly think a bunch of sales crap means proof.

edit: for spelling

[ December 10, 2002, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: satterfi ]

 

[msparks]

quote:

---

Originally posted by satterfi:
msparks

I think you're just screwing with me. You can't possibly think a bunch of sales crap means proof.

edit: for spelling

---

If I am I'm not on purpose, I don't sell it or have any personal experience with it.

If you are intersted call me and I'll give you bob riley's number and see what he say's about it.

[ December 25, 2002, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]

 

[carl97ss]

perhaps Satterfi is correct about EG being a better absorber of heat...
http://autos.yahoo.com/repair/results/ques012.html

However, when PG is not mixed w/ water maybe it's better at absorbing and releasing heat...maybe. http://www.lubespecialist.com/coolant/coolingnowater.htm

I'm confused.

[ December 11, 2002, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: carl97ss ]

 

[satterfi]

The performance differences between PG and EG aren't sigificant to worry about, it's just acedemic.

DI water and 'Water Wetter' is the ticket for high heat loads.

 

[Soma07]

I think we need to make a distinction between pure PG (as in the evan's system) and diluted PG (as in the Sierra stuff Yahoo mentioned). Once PG has been mixed with water its boiling point plummets... (260º vs 369º)

FWIW an extremely knowledgeable engine builder I've run across uses Evans NPG and he says it works as claimed. He mentioned one of its primary performance benefits is that it allows you to run much hotter than usual coolant temps without detonation which improves thermal efficiency.

I'd post a link to the thread but we're not allowed to link to other boards for some reason...

From what I can tell it appears that pure PG isn't as efficient as a EG/water mix. This is probably why Evans sells special waterpumps which increase coolant flow to compensate.

That said I think the pro's of NPG (pure PG) coolants outweigh the con's. Costwise its not for everyone but I do think it has its place. Its definately not BS for sure...

 

[cousincletus]

I'll try some tomorrow on my corn flakes and post back if able.

 

[JakeGMCHD]

Guys not trying to sell anyone anything or do I sell anything. But I use Evans NPG+ in my 2001 K2500HD Duramax Allison. This was a simple pour in solution no need to upgrade any equipment but the pressure cap. I have used this for 16 months with no heating or over heating problems. It actually seems to heat the coolant up quicker for faster heat in the winter months. I would think for anyone pulling heavy loads on a regular basis this would be great for controlling temps.

 

[Jay]

In the yahoo link posted by carl97ss, the author of the article overlooked one of the most important benefits of PG. Since PG doesn't break down to oxalic acid, as does EG, it never has to be replaced. The anti-corrosion additives need to be replenished periodically, but the coolant can stay in place forever.

This is a big plus for the big emergency power generators we have at work. They have hundreds of gallons of EG each and it will be a huge expense for us to have this drained and either taken away or recycled on site. If they had been filled with PG instead, we could have avoided this completely.

 

[Ken2]

Why use antifreeze in Arroy Grande? Will it freeze there? Why not use water plus the usual anticorrosion coolant additives in those diesels? The plant's chemical supplier will recommend the right product.

The diesels are probably kept warm, and even if cold, the water jacket won't freeze in your climate, will it?

Put this in as a cost saving idea--keep the award; it's yours.
Ken

 

[Ed]

The factory service manual for my 98 Jeep Grand Cherokee very specifically says to NOT use Propylene Glycol based antifreeze.
It does NOT transfer heat as well as ethylene glycol.

Anti-freeze formulated for use in Diesels have additives to deal with the cavitation caused by the detonation induced vibrations set up by the diesel combustion process. Cavitation is extremely destructive and causes a form of "corrosion" to the metal surfaces. Gasoline engines rely on burning and reasonable rates of pressure rise as opposed to "explosions" so do not have these problems.

 

[scirocco16V]

Propylene glycol works for preventing detonation in engines that are prone to it. Several VW tuning firms used Evans setup in their Turbo VW motors or high compression engines. the only problem was one of the turbo cars caught fire when the 100% propylene glycol used to cool the watercooled turbo seeped thru the pipe and ignnited after getting to the hot exhaust manifold. If you can keep it from getting to hot parts, propylene glycol is the ticket for high power motors. To be more effective though, a reverse flow cooling system has to be used.

 

[Ken2]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ed:

........
Anti-freeze formulated for use in Diesels have additives to deal with the cavitation caused by the detonation induced vibrations set up by the diesel combustion process. Cavitation is extremely destructive and causes a form of "corrosion" to the metal surfaces. Gasoline engines rely on burning and reasonable rates of pressure rise as opposed to "explosions" so do not have these problems.

---

Diesel fuel inside a cylinder doesn't explode any more than gasoline inside a cylinder explodes. A diesel's rate of combustion pressure rise is controlled by the duration of the fuel injection period during the combustion stroke.

Cavitation is a problem only on engines with wet liners, because they don't have the rigidity of a block with no liners or of dry liners.


Ken

 

[metroplex]

What's interesting is that Prestone is the official anti-freeze of NASCAR.

Too bad they don't run ethylene glycol in their cooling systems. Inside NASCAR sources state some racers use 50/50 Redline Water Wetter and Distilled/deionized water.

 

[Malibu]

On a Toyota forum a guy tried Evan's coolant and it turned out to be a disaster. I can't remember exactly what happened but I do his engine was ruined. This guy now only uses what the owners manual recommends: genuine Toyota factory red fluid mixed 50/50 with distilled or demineralized water.

 

[Jay]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ken2:
Why use antifreeze in Arroy Grande? Will it freeze there? Why not use water plus the usual anticorrosion coolant additives in those diesels? The plant's chemical supplier will recommend the right product.

The diesels are probably kept warm, and even if cold, the water jacket won't freeze in your climate, will it?

Put this in as a cost saving idea--keep the award; it's yours.
Ken

---

I'm trying to convince my supervisor that our emergency generators don't need any anti-freeze, or at least only need freezing protection to just above 0*F. The coldest temp on record here is 24*F. Our generators are heated but we have a long run to the radiators outside. We have over 800 gallons of coolant each for our two engines! Caterpillar ELC was installed in them at a cost of over $10,000. Now we face a huge hazardous waste expense in getting rid of it.

I'd like to use "WaterWetter" or Neo's or Schaeffer's equivalent product and water only.

 

[metroplex]

I see that you know water is the real coolant.

If the lowest temperature you see is 0F, then might I suggest 60% water, 40% anti-freeze?

Remember, water freezes at 32F, NOT 0F!!!!
Water freezes at 0C which is 32F.

Also keep in mind ethylene glycol also raises the boiling point of the coolant as well as provide necessary additives.

 

[labman]

I switched to Prestone Low Tox several years ago. How many of you have a dog your love? The EG antifreezes kill many dogs and cats, even an occasional child. Advance Auto and K-Mart sell the 2 grades of Prestone for the same price. However, a 50-50 mixture of the PG base antifreeze only protects down to -26 degrees F. Those of you that live with more extreme winters may need to use more.

Deionized/distilled/rainwater. They vary, but the important thing is to avoid high mineral tap water. You can end up with the tubes in your radiator lined with lime, or even plugged.

 

[Accordman]

On a Toyota forum a debate on OEM vs Havoline Extended Life (Dexcool) coolant was settled by a virgin antifreeze analysis..

As you can see, the Toyota OEM coolant is alot different than Dexcool
http://home.earthlink.net/~accordman/titan.jpg

Also, one guy that tried propylene glycol in his Toyota system ended up with catastrophic consequences to his engine. He's an OEM coolant man now!

 

[Craig L]

I saw the comparison between the Dex-Cool and the Toyota Red, I noticed the differences. But, do we know what these differences mean? I've had Havoline Dex-Cool in my Camry for about four or five years now (drain and refill radiator every year) and all seems perfect. But, after recently reading lots of horror stories about Dex-Cool, I'm seriously thinking of switching to Toyota Red or some other antifreeze like Xerex G-05 or Xerex G-30. But before I make any changes, I'd like to really learn about the differences between coolants. I've thoroughly read the product sheets from Xerex's and others' websites, read the backs of a lot of coolants in the stores, read the owner's manuals, etc. and still cannot come to a clear concensus in my mind of what to use.

Overall, it seems like there's three groups of thinking on this: 1) use OEM and only OEM, 2) use anything you want so long as it's pure and not contaminated with another type of coolant (e.g. don't mix OAT with regular green) and 3) It's best to use "X" because of "Y" and "Z."

I'm not sure which group, I'm in. Right now, I'm in group 3 and "X" is Dex-Cool, but I'm thinking that maybe I should change my thinking....

 

[Malibu]

Craig L. The Dexcool is not likely going to harm your Camry as long as you continue to change it every year.

Dexcool becomes Deathcool only in engines where poeple don't change it for several consecutive years and if they let the coolant level get low in the overflow bottle.

Toyota Red doesn't have any of these problems. Ignore it for 5 years and your system will still be clean. So its a fail-safe kind of antifreeze.