Esters & GF-5 Formulations
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Pretty succinct slide show. Neat. The beni's of well formulated oils, with just the right ester content.
But no, there are no secrets. Right.
Page 8 is for those who say group III = IV
But no, there are no secrets. Right.
Page 8 is for those who say group III = IV
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Page 8 is for those who say group III = IV
III is closer to IV than IV is to V
Page 8 is for those who say group III = IV
III is closer to IV than IV is to V
At some viscosities true, but certainly not 8 cSt. And III never goes below 5% NOACK. Point is they aren't the same and obviously blending esters in makes a superior oil.
Page 24 actually surprised me
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
Page 24 actually surprised me
The PAO results surprised me too.
Page 24 actually surprised me
The PAO results surprised me too.
Yes this is typical of pure PAO. The mineral oils are completely combusted, the PAO is only partially combusted, diester is just beginning to combust and ester isn't burned at all.
275°C is nearly 530°F. Run this test at 200°C or 225°C (200 °C = 392 °F) (225 °C = 437 °F) and the appearance is different.
275°C is nearly 530°F. Run this test at 200°C or 225°C (200 °C = 392 °F) (225 °C = 437 °F) and the appearance is different.
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
Page 24 actually surprised me
PAOs and Group IIIs typically perform poorly in high temperature coking tests, even worse than a Group I. The main reason is the lack of polarity - polar molecules help dissolve deposits. Group I base oils have a fair amounts of polar aromatic molecules.
That said, don't assume any coorelation to motor oils, which are complex blends with detergents and dispersants.
Tom NJ
Page 24 actually surprised me
PAOs and Group IIIs typically perform poorly in high temperature coking tests, even worse than a Group I. The main reason is the lack of polarity - polar molecules help dissolve deposits. Group I base oils have a fair amounts of polar aromatic molecules.
That said, don't assume any coorelation to motor oils, which are complex blends with detergents and dispersants.
Tom NJ
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
Yes this is typical of pure PAO.
It depends on the PAO chemical structure and it source monomers.
Some PAO's have much less coking than others.
The better PAO's come from hydrogenated C10-C12 dimers.
Yes this is typical of pure PAO.
It depends on the PAO chemical structure and it source monomers.
Some PAO's have much less coking than others.
The better PAO's come from hydrogenated C10-C12 dimers.
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
Page 8 is for those who say group III = IV
And here is a comment from ChevronPhillips to that effect as well:
http://www.cpchem.com/enu/pao_9659.asp
Page 8 is for those who say group III = IV
And here is a comment from ChevronPhillips to that effect as well:
http://www.cpchem.com/enu/pao_9659.asp
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
Yes this is typical of pure PAO.
It depends on the PAO chemical structure and it source monomers.
Some PAO's have much less coking than others.
The better PAO's come from hydrogenated C10-C12 dimers.
Awesome info. Thanks mola!
Quote:
Yes this is typical of pure PAO.
It depends on the PAO chemical structure and it source monomers.
Some PAO's have much less coking than others.
The better PAO's come from hydrogenated C10-C12 dimers.
Awesome info. Thanks mola!
That graph on P.8 isn't drawn to proper scale for the Group III's. Although PAO's are genrally a little better than Group III's -- the GIII's are generally closer in NOACK to PAO's than what is indicated on that graph.
Quote:
And here is a comment from ChevronPhillips to that effect as well:
http://www.cpchem.com/enu/pao_9659.asp
I'm skeptical of that CP comparison article. The statement … " … However, Group III base stocks are derived from multiple feedstock choices and processing technologies, …" …pretty well makes me suspect they used some old Group III's in that comparison. It was done in Europe when… ??? … and using what Group III base oils?
In the 1990's (before modern hydroprocessed GIII) there were solvent dewaxed Group III's being produced in Europe that really weren't "that" high performance oils -- at least not when compared to the all hydroprocessed Group III's that came on stream in the late 1990's from companies like Neste, Chevron and Petro-Canada. I don't know if those inferior Group III's are still being produced today, but I don't think anyone would be using them in a synthetic motor oil these days. I wouldn't be surprised if a modern Group II could outperform those old Group III's.
These days, modern Group III's frequently outperform PAO's …
Quote:
interscience
The relationship between oxidation stability and antioxidant depletion in turbine oils formulated with Groups II, III and IV base stocks … …
The results also showed a surprisingly high oxidation stability for turbine oils formulated with Group III base stock, with the oxidation resistance of the Group III systems exceeding that of the equivalent Group II and Group IV systems.
Quote:
And here is a comment from ChevronPhillips to that effect as well:
http://www.cpchem.com/enu/pao_9659.asp
I'm skeptical of that CP comparison article. The statement … " … However, Group III base stocks are derived from multiple feedstock choices and processing technologies, …" …pretty well makes me suspect they used some old Group III's in that comparison. It was done in Europe when… ??? … and using what Group III base oils?
In the 1990's (before modern hydroprocessed GIII) there were solvent dewaxed Group III's being produced in Europe that really weren't "that" high performance oils -- at least not when compared to the all hydroprocessed Group III's that came on stream in the late 1990's from companies like Neste, Chevron and Petro-Canada. I don't know if those inferior Group III's are still being produced today, but I don't think anyone would be using them in a synthetic motor oil these days. I wouldn't be surprised if a modern Group II could outperform those old Group III's.
These days, modern Group III's frequently outperform PAO's …
Quote:
interscience
The relationship between oxidation stability and antioxidant depletion in turbine oils formulated with Groups II, III and IV base stocks … …
The results also showed a surprisingly high oxidation stability for turbine oils formulated with Group III base stock, with the oxidation resistance of the Group III systems exceeding that of the equivalent Group II and Group IV systems.
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