Ester vs PAO - GDI and emissions considerations

[Patman]

Originally Posted by ChrisD46
Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
The only way I can possibly see improving on M1 ESP 0w40, to get a small anti-wear benefit and possibly less piston deposits, is to use an oil rated dexos2, Mercedes 229.51, Porsche A40, BMW LL-04, and VW 502, combined, with a slightly higher HTHS.



Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 kind of comes close, as it's got dexos2, Mercedes 229.31, 229.51 and 229.52, VW 502, 503, 504, 505, 506, 507, BMWLL04 and instead of Porsche A40 it has Porsche C30. HTHS is the same 3.5 as 0w40 ESP though.

*Pennzoil also has a 5W30 synthetic "Euro" oil available at WM .



Pennzoil Euro L 5w30 is a great deal, it's priced a lot less than Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 and way easier to find (in the US) but it doesn't have the same amount of certifications though. (it's missing the VW ones and the Porsche C30)

 

[4WD]

PPE vanished from here over a year ago …

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted by 4WD
PPE vanished from here over a year ago …

It's gone from my local WM shelves, too. Could be at the local auto stores for all I know, I never shop for oil at those anymore.

 

[burla]

Originally Posted by dailydriver
Originally Posted by burla
Ester and Pao better then minteral base oil for lspi, sadly some of the powerhouses refuse to lower calcium levels so I personally would go trying them. I asked Dave at Redline why they just don't do what m1 and everyone else will do some day and simply take CA sown 500 and add Mag 500, and Dave told me because he has never heard of any lspi events with redline oil. Kind of tone deaf if you ask me, it doesn't matter if everything in your formula is more of a lspi quencher then most any other oils, as is the case with redline, but you still have a high CA level. I think it is a matter of time before Redline follows the industry, just a little disapointed they haven't done so sooner..


DID Dave cite the high ZDDP levels in Red Line as a basis/reason for him "never having heard of any LSPI events" with his company's white funnel bottle 'street' oils?

No, like I said Redline is tone deaf on this issue of lspi. Regardless if or if it isn't a decent oil to run in a Di Turbo, there is no downside to lowering CA and Increasing MAG like everyone else with a brain. If your compitition is Amsoil and they made a great lspi quenching oil, why wouldn't you follow suit? Because if you did and you compare these two formulas I could make an easy argument for Redline if not for CA level. And since more and more of the market is DI Turbo, it is a bad move to not make a sn+ friendly formula. Maybe when gf-6 drops it will force redline to join the club, but for now it is a bit disapointing for people with di's. And unlike other "boutique" formula changes, if redline did that simple thing, it still would be hemi honey and a great choice for older engines that seam to respond better to high additive oils. Whereas other oils have left the high additive market all together to be API slaves. They can crush the compitition and be a stand out oil for nearly every application (low saps the exception) if they do that simple thing. It is just hype to suggest high additives will not be benefit to the ever ending quest of fuel mileage and they things they do in the name of CAFE and EPA. There are only a few oils out there that dare to be different for the benfit of people who want METAL protection over all other considerations.

 

[Whimsey]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL

One consideration is if ZDDP was increased LSPI could be quenched.[/quote


I recall there was SOME effectiveness with this approach, but I don't believe it was entirely able to mitigate it.


Plus higher levels of ZDDP can poison the cat in an oil burner. That's why it has been reduced in SM/SN/SN+ oils. If you don't have an oil burner then higher ZDDP shouldn't affect the cat's life. As I understand usually LSPI occurs with smaller displacement Turbo DI engines mainly or only. I don't think it's a concern with a big block non turbo engine, even if it's DI.

Whimsey

 

[Gokhan]

ACEA has been working on LSPI protection. LSPI protection is not part of any ACEA oil yet but it will be included in the next ACEA iteration.

ACEA 2018 is expected to be released in mid-2020 or later and a new A6/B5 or G6 category for TGDI engines that includes LSPI protection and timing-chain-wear protection is expected. An overcomplicated oil-specification system gets even more complicated. The second law of thermodynamics is in action.

https://www.lubrizoladditives360.com/introducing-acea-2018-light-duty-oil-sequences/

It sounds like the ACEA specs evolve much slower than the ILSAC/API and OEM specs.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by burla
Originally Posted by dailydriver
Originally Posted by burla
Ester and Pao better then minteral base oil for lspi, sadly some of the powerhouses refuse to lower calcium levels so I personally would go trying them. I asked Dave at Redline why they just don't do what m1 and everyone else will do some day and simply take CA sown 500 and add Mag 500, and Dave told me because he has never heard of any lspi events with redline oil. Kind of tone deaf if you ask me, it doesn't matter if everything in your formula is more of a lspi quencher then most any other oils, as is the case with redline, but you still have a high CA level. I think it is a matter of time before Redline follows the industry, just a little disapointed they haven't done so sooner..


DID Dave cite the high ZDDP levels in Red Line as a basis/reason for him "never having heard of any LSPI events" with his company's white funnel bottle 'street' oils?

No, like I said Redline is tone deaf on this issue of lspi. Regardless if or if it isn't a decent oil to run in a Di Turbo, there is no downside to lowering CA and Increasing MAG like everyone else with a brain. If your compitition is Amsoil and they made a great lspi quenching oil, why wouldn't you follow suit? Because if you did and you compare these two formulas I could make an easy argument for Redline if not for CA level. And since more and more of the market is DI Turbo, it is a bad move to not make a sn+ friendly formula. Maybe when gf-6 drops it will force redline to join the club, but for now it is a bit disapointing for people with di's. And unlike other "boutique" formula changes, if redline did that simple thing, it still would be hemi honey and a great choice for older engines that seam to respond better to high additive oils. Whereas other oils have left the high additive market all together to be API slaves. They can crush the compitition and be a stand out oil for nearly every application (low saps the exception) if they do that simple thing. It is just hype to suggest high additives will not be benefit to the ever ending quest of fuel mileage and they things they do in the name of CAFE and EPA. There are only a few oils out there that dare to be different for the benfit of people who want METAL protection over all other considerations.



PAO is actually worse for LSPI.

 

[burla]

Originally Posted by Whimsey
Originally Posted by OVERKILL

One consideration is if ZDDP was increased LSPI could be quenched.


I recall there was SOME effectiveness with this approach, but I don't believe it was entirely able to mitigate it. [/quote


Plus higher levels of ZDDP can poison the cat in an oil burner. That's why it has been reduced in SM/SN/SN+ oils. If you don't have an oil burner then higher ZDDP shouldn't affect the cat's life. As I understand usually LSPI occurs with smaller displacement Turbo DI engines mainly or only. I don't think it's a concern with a big block non turbo engine, even if it's DI.

Whimsey


I'd say poisening Cats that can be bought cheaply is a better option then engine damage. Not saying that Cats will be poisened, but like everything, choose your risk. Back in 2002 and prior I didn't hear of a "great" cat poisening event eventhough the zddp levels were 1200. Lower zddp has much more with EPA then damaging Cats, and the EPA doesn't care about the cost to your engine if any.

 

[burla]

Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by burla
Originally Posted by dailydriver
Originally Posted by burla
Ester and Pao better then minteral base oil for lspi, sadly some of the powerhouses refuse to lower calcium levels so I personally would go trying them. I asked Dave at Redline why they just don't do what m1 and everyone else will do some day and simply take CA sown 500 and add Mag 500, and Dave told me because he has never heard of any lspi events with redline oil. Kind of tone deaf if you ask me, it doesn't matter if everything in your formula is more of a lspi quencher then most any other oils, as is the case with redline, but you still have a high CA level. I think it is a matter of time before Redline follows the industry, just a little disapointed they haven't done so sooner..


DID Dave cite the high ZDDP levels in Red Line as a basis/reason for him "never having heard of any LSPI events" with his company's white funnel bottle 'street' oils?

No, like I said Redline is tone deaf on this issue of lspi. Regardless if or if it isn't a decent oil to run in a Di Turbo, there is no downside to lowering CA and Increasing MAG like everyone else with a brain. If your compitition is Amsoil and they made a great lspi quenching oil, why wouldn't you follow suit? Because if you did and you compare these two formulas I could make an easy argument for Redline if not for CA level. And since more and more of the market is DI Turbo, it is a bad move to not make a sn+ friendly formula. Maybe when gf-6 drops it will force redline to join the club, but for now it is a bit disapointing for people with di's. And unlike other "boutique" formula changes, if redline did that simple thing, it still would be hemi honey and a great choice for older engines that seam to respond better to high additive oils. Whereas other oils have left the high additive market all together to be API slaves. They can crush the compitition and be a stand out oil for nearly every application (low saps the exception) if they do that simple thing. It is just hype to suggest high additives will not be benefit to the ever ending quest of fuel mileage and they things they do in the name of CAFE and EPA. There are only a few oils out there that dare to be different for the benfit of people who want METAL protection over all other considerations.



PAO is actually worse for LSPI.


link?

 

[RDY4WAR]

Originally Posted by burla
Originally Posted by dave1251



PAO is actually worse for LSPI.


link?


Ditto!

 

[Gokhan]

Calcium affects LSPI events linearly. ZDDP affects LSPI events exponentially. However, ZDDP is limited by the specs.

https://www.infineuminsight.com/articles/passenger-cars/quenching-low-speed-pre-ignition/

PAO is slightly worse for LSPI protection than Group III but the effect is small. Group II is better. Group I is in turn better. Group V is the best.

https://www.infineuminsight.com/articles/passenger-cars/lspi-and-lubricant-auto-ignition/

 

[burla]

ty Gokhan

 

[burla]

Maybe that is why Ester based redline isn't seeing any LSPI events, maybe group 5 great lspi quencher even in the %'s you see with redline's formula. When they lower their Calcium, then it really makes a good choice for expensive di turbo's like eco boost f bodies. I do however what is up with the pao and group 3 compared to even group 2. Additive absorbabilty? If you have any info on that please post. As usual you post good stuff, thanks again. Good conversation OP.

 

[OilUzer]

Also Red Line may not have a huge market share ... Besides I don't think people in general are attributing lspi to oil even if there is a connection. Have a family member with small turbo di and engine blew up under warranty. was replaced under warranty ... I asked him if dealer talked about lspi and he had no idea what I'm talking about. I asked what kind of oil he used and he didn't know. Said whatever dealer uses. His car doesn't specify d1g2 or d2 either ...

 

[4WD]

You know there are some driveline applications where RL is hard to beat … but honestly the UOA's posted here have not beat a number of products sold for much less …

 

[burla]

Originally Posted by 4WD
You know there are some driveline applications where RL is hard to beat … but honestly the UOA's posted here have not beat a number of products sold for much less …


That would depend on the application as well, and generally the first uoa of redline is the worse. I don't know if that is from all of the AW/EP additives, or some suggest maybe a leaching of ion's that show up in the uoa, but the long term uoa's of redline in hemi's are the lowest I've seen, even when compared to PUP which prior to us doing all of our uoa's thought was the lowest wear number oil. Blackstone analysis thread at ram forum for anyone interested. Many uoa's with many oils on the same page, look up rlk's uoa, hemi395, or any other. Many guys doing uoa's on the board, their results should not be discounted.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by burla
Ester and Pao better then minteral base oil for lspi, sadly some of the powerhouses refuse to lower calcium levels so I personally would go trying them. I asked Dave at Redline why they just don't do what m1 and everyone else will do some day and simply take CA sown 500 and add Mag 500, and Dave told me because he has never heard of any lspi events with redline oil. Kind of tone deaf if you ask me, it doesn't matter if everything in your formula is more of a lspi quencher then most any other oils, as is the case with redline, but you still have a high CA level. I think it is a matter of time before Redline follows the industry, just a little disapointed they haven't done so sooner..

Here's one time you'll find me defend Red Line. I suspect their moly and ZDDP levels more than make up for whatever benefits might be obtained by a magnesium package; more accurately, that's what I suspect their reasoning is. Setting ordinary API and certification concerns aside (not to mention cost), there are a lot of things I like about Red Line for GDI and TGDI.