Ester oil and nikasil cylinders, good or bad?

[boxerbeemer]

Hello,

First I would like to tell I have searched about the thing I am interested about not only on this forum, but also across the whole internet and coudn´t find the answer. Perhaps because nikasil plated cylinders for 4 stroke motorbikes are not so much in use anymore (because of newer methods like alusil, itd.), I don´t know. That is why I am turning to you guys. Although the engine of a motorbike is a subject of discussion, I decided to post this under the car section, since the oil I am using is an automotive one.

The thing is, I am the new owner of a used, 18 years old motorbike BMW R1150R. I am taking care of this motorbike as much as I can, but I also like to drive it hard once it gets to the operational temperature. I mean, really hard, when the road conditions and traffic allow that (I am not an idiot to put my and other people´s life at risk). I have a few mountain roads next to the city I live and the engine regularly spins fully loaded all the way to its redline.
Because the engine is separated from the gearbox and the clutch is dry and like many people on this forum said, the motorcycle specific oil is not needed. That is why I went fort the car oil, which contains friction modifiers. Because I drive my motorbike hard and want to keep it in best shape possible, I went for a racing car oil, namely Motul 300V Competition 15W-50. I ordered 10 litres of this oil at the time because of the cheaper price.
My concern is the following - I have heard about multiple failures of nikasil coating due to the corrosion done by the acids and alcohols. The irony is, obviously, this is exactly what the esters are made of, as far as I remember chemistry. So the oil I am using is based on esters, which means alcohols and acids.

This is why I am turning on you guys, who know these things better than me. Is it possible that I could ruin my cylinder walls using this ester oil? I really wanted just the best for my engine. The oil seems to be a premium quality one, recommended by all the racers, feedback across the internet is truly nothing but possitive. But has anyone actually used it in the BMW oilhead engine? And if not, do you advise me to continue using this oil for the next 2 oil changes (which is what I have on stock at home)?
If you help me with this one I will certainly sleep much better at night. I just really hope I didn´t make a mistake trying to make things better. Thank you very much for your help.

 

[FowVay]

I think the acids that caused the corrosive history on the Nikasil cylinder walls was formed from the combustion process. The acid would have been a sulfur derived sulfuric acid and the problem was with a porosity condition which allowed the base metal of the cylinder (aluminum) to corrode which then caused a spalling/flaking condition of the Nikasil coating. The coating itself was not the problem but rather the application of the coating.

The condition on the BMW engines has been remedied long since 18 years. You have no concerns running the Motul oil.

 

[Silk]

I'm using an ester oil in my Airhead, I'll get back to you next week when the Nikasil peels off.

 

[Cujet]

I've been using ester oils in Nikasil bores for decades now. Both 2 stroke and 4 stroke. I've never had any form of failure. Keep in mind that any quality oil is designed to combat acids. We measure the TBN or total base number to measure the remaining acid-combating additive package in the oil. It's said that any used oil TBN over 1 is good and that all acids have been neutralized. I would like a bit more cushion on that one. Many oils have a TBN around 10 or so when new and over 6 when drained.

As mentioned above, it's sulfur that's the problem.

 

[Srt20]

I am not aware of the issue with acid and nikasil coatings of many years past, but any good nikasil in the last 20+ years will have not problem with acids. Heck, we use sulfuric acid to clean melted pistons off of our nikasil coated cylinders. Nikasil is extremely tough. And it is cheap to get a cylinder reNikasiled.

 

[boxerbeemer]

Thanks a lot to all of you. Now it seems obvious that the oil itself really can´t be acidic, unless large amounts of sulphur along with a lot of blow-by would contaminate the oil. Based on the knowledge you` ve got about the oil and taking into consideration it is a racing oil (300V Competition 15W-50), what would be the ideal drain interval? I am doing a mix of city riding (about 30%) and the rest are country/hill roads.

Best regards, boxerbeemer

 

[burla]

That Nikasil is bullet proof I used to talk with customers of mine with those old Porsches, I don't why more manu's don't use it. The nickle is sacrificial, no way you can make a cylinder with nickle. What's left behind is a great cylinder wall. I'd get a used oil analysis, it's a bike so maybe go 3k miles and send it in, I like blackstone labs myself.

 

[burla]

Also besides setting a good interval, you can see if there are any nickle readings in your uoa as to your point. But I doubt there will be, I used ester oils with uoa's for 6 years and know many others as well, it seams like there is something with the first uoa of ester oil, assuming you are on the very first oil chnage with ester oil, some ion's seam to leach is the theory. The other theory is that because the name brand ester oil use so many aw/ep additives those could also be responsible for the first uoa's high wear numbers. But rest assured, long term wear numbers are stellar, so if you get to the third oil change and you don't like the wear numbers, then you can move to group 3 or 4 oils.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by burla
Also besides setting a good interval, you can see if there are any nickle readings in your uoa as to your point. But I doubt there will be, I used ester oils with uoa's for 6 years and know many others as well, it seams like there is something with the first uoa of ester oil, assuming you are on the very first oil chnage with ester oil, some ion's seam to leach is the theory. The other theory is that because the name brand ester oil use so many aw/ep additives those could also be responsible for the first uoa's high wear numbers. But rest assured, long term wear numbers are stellar, so if you get to the third oil change and you don't like the wear numbers, then you can move to group 3 or 4 oils.

It's nickel, not nickle. And I don't see how nickel in the UOA would show anything, the nickel is honed away to expose the silicon carbide wear surface. If the Nikasil coating is damaged then you would see aluminum in the UOA.

 

[benjy]

Ester base oils are the best BUT if you bought real racing oil it has less cleaners + longevity additives so change SOONER!!

 

[boxerbeemer]

I am thinking about UOA, Blackstone really makes a great report. I will most likely send sample to them.
What do you think how much sooner? Would 2500 miles interval be ok or even sooner?

 

[sunruh]

why in the world ... very literally ... ship a uoa across the atlantic ocean?
do they not have a company in your country that can do uoa's?

run the oil for your normal oci and then sample. why go shorter now?

blackstones shows a great report.
the questions are: do you believe the results? do you disregard their jabbering?

 

[boxerbeemer]

I believe in their results, however I couldn´t find the analysis of the 300V Competition 15W-50 oil yet. So I know almost nothing about how the oil performs after several thousand miles.
The shipping costs today are so low, that it is almost irrelevant where I send it.

I am from Slovenia, and yes, now when I googled I saw we also have an option to test it here. The only used oil tests I have seen in life are from blackstone, so I thought why not to send my also and compare results.

 

[Bonz]

My 2001 ZRX1200 has nikasil plated cylinder bored and it is hard a woodpecker lips. I tried to cut windage ports on a sacrificial block (practice to see if it would be practical to try on a usable block) and used up multiple carbide grinding tools/tips. The layer is so thin yet it is incredibly hard and durable.

I get between 3 to 5 PPM of nickel showing up in every analysis for the past 45,000 miles. I run Mobil1 10w40 4T or 20w50 Vtwin interchangeably and I know there is some ester content in them based upon how well they hold their viscosity over 5,000 mile oci's.

Redline is an ester oil and many millions of miles have been run with nickel-plated cylinders I am sure and zero issues.

 

[weasley]

Originally Posted by boxerbeemer
So the oil I am using is based on esters, which means alcohols and acids.

Here is your big misunderstanding. Esters does not mean alcohols and acids. Esters means esters. Just like water does not mean hydrogen and oxygen, and table salt does not mean sodium and chlorine.

 

[jakewells]

I use a ester based oil in my equipment but some of it uses a chrome plated bore i don't have any problems with it and the engines run much better and cleaner on it. I use motul 800 2t offroad.

 

[kschachn]

...

 

[JPowell490]

I have a UOA posted in the motorcycle section for Motul 300V 10w40 Motorcycle Competition oil. I also have the plated cylinder walls in my 2000 ZX12R.

My wear numbers were a bit high on my first run through.

I may send in the second soon.

Oh yes, why are you running car oil and not the motorcycle specific?

 

[Silk]

Originally Posted by JPowell490
Oh yes, why are you running car oil and not the motorcycle specific?


Because it's a BMW ? Why would it need a motorcycle specific oil...just because it's a motorcycle ? I top up the engine in my car with motorcycle oil, it's good for the gearbox apparently.

 

[sunruh]

Originally Posted by JPowell490

Oh yes, why are you running car oil and not the motorcycle specific?


pt barnum has you pegged spot on