Ester content -- when is it "too much"?

[dparm]

The term "race" is probably a bit of a misnomer since half of the product datasheet is touting how well it works in street cars and in very cold temperatures. Motul's 300V and Redline oils are marketed as "race" but clearly state they work well for street cars.

I would call a non-detergent oil a true "race" oil.

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: dparm
When is it "too much" ester for non-race use?


Depends on the ester and the intended use. My only concern with esters in street use is seal compatibility, so I prefer to balance the ester with an equal amount of PAO. Water retention is not an issue, nor is oxidative stability. Natural esters such as vegetable oils lack oxidative stability, but synthetic POEs are more oxidatively stable than PAOs.

Some esters are friendlier on seals than others, but these are usually high molecular weight esters with lower polarity and are not as suitable for 0W-X or 5W-X street oils as lighter esters. One of the most popular POEs used in motor oils is "C8C10 TMP", which has the following physical properties:

Visc @ 100C = 4.4 cSt
Visc @ 40C = 19 cSt
Visc @ -40C = 5,600 cSt
Viscosity Index = 140
Pour Point = -65F (-54C)
Flash Point = 490F ((254C)
Noack = 3%
Density @ 15.6C = 0.95

This ester has very high lubricity and is contained in some jet engine oils, but seal compatibility is a moderate concern for me. When balanced with some PAO, however, I have no worries and it becomes an ideal base oil for motor oils. I wouldn't hesitate to use it up to about 40%, with 40% PAO. Above that a series of seal compatibility tests would be prudent.

Tom NJ


Phenomenal info. Thanks. Interestingly, the datasheet also says:

"Utilizes technology derived from aircraft turbojet engine lubrication"

 

[JHZR2]

My issue would be if there was adverse water interactions... then it may be too much if it degrades or permanently reacts the ester.

 

[dparm]

I run a short OCI -- 5,000 miles, though that typically works out to about 9 months (car is not a DD and has a climate controlled garage). I always get my oil analyzed at the halfway point.

 

[SilverC6]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: dparm
When is it "too much" ester for non-race use?


Depends on the ester and the intended use. My only concern with esters in street use is seal compatibility, so I prefer to balance the ester with an equal amount of PAO. Water retention is not an issue, nor is oxidative stability. Natural esters such as vegetable oils lack oxidative stability, but synthetic POEs are more oxidatively stable than PAOs.

Some esters are friendlier on seals than others, but these are usually high molecular weight esters with lower polarity and are not as suitable for 0W-X or 5W-X street oils as lighter esters. One of the most popular POEs used in motor oils is "C8C10 TMP", which has the following physical properties:

Visc @ 100C = 4.4 cSt
Visc @ 40C = 19 cSt
Visc @ -40C = 5,600 cSt
Viscosity Index = 140
Pour Point = -65F (-54C)
Flash Point = 490F ((254C)
Noack = 3%
Density @ 15.6C = 0.95

This ester has very high lubricity and is contained in some jet engine oils, but seal compatibility is a moderate concern for me. When balanced with some PAO, however, I have no worries and it becomes an ideal base oil for motor oils. I wouldn't hesitate to use it up to about 40%, with 40% PAO. Above that a series of seal compatibility tests would be prudent.

Tom NJ

What a shining example of the kind of post that has been far too rare at BITOG. Thanks, Tom!


I have to say, it is much better than my "just use YBP" comment I usually offer.

 

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted By: dparm
The term "race" is probably a bit of a misnomer since half of the product datasheet is touting how well it works in street cars and in very cold temperatures. Motul's 300V and Redline oils are marketed as "race" but clearly state they work well for street cars.

I would call a non-detergent oil a true "race" oil.

It also depends on the levels of detergents/dispersants. We know that 300V and Red Line street oils have decent levels, while Red Line race oils and Amsoil Dominator are true race oils with lower detergent levels. Probably a good idea to find out from Fuchs.

-Dennis

 

[ARCOgraphite]

All this ester talk makes me want to dump a cup of PE into my Quaker State Conventional.

Here's the Chem-E cheat sheet:

http://www.diolube.com/ESTERS IN SYNTHETIC LUBRICANTS.htm

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: dparm
I can't discuss non-sponsor websites here, but the Fuchs Titan Race products are actually just re-branded Silkolene Pro 4 Plus oils. You can get those from a lot of motorcycle retailers.

Silkolene has informed me it's identical stuff with a different label (which I confirmed by comparing the spec sheets).


So, does this stuff have a 4T-like, reduced add pack??

Also, is this exact line (Titan Race) available in anything lighter than a 5W-40?

 

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Here's the Chem-E cheat sheet:

http://www.diolube.com/ESTERS IN SYNTHETIC LUBRICANTS.htm


Cheat is the right word! That company lifted that paper, which I originally wrote, from the old Hatco website without giving any credit. They present it as if it is their own original work. Very low integrity in my opinion.

Tom NJ

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: dparm
I can't discuss non-sponsor websites here, but the Fuchs Titan Race products are actually just re-branded Silkolene Pro 4 Plus oils. You can get those from a lot of motorcycle retailers.

Silkolene has informed me it's identical stuff with a different label (which I confirmed by comparing the spec sheets).


So, does this stuff have a 4T-like, reduced add pack??

Also, is this exact line (Titan Race) available in anything lighter than a 5W-40?



The Silkolene guy said it is the exact same oil just relabeled.

Titan Race (either Pro S or Pro R) are available as 5w30, 5w40, 20w50, 15w50, 10w50, 10w60, and 0w20: http://www.titanrace.com/products.htm

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Here's the Chem-E cheat sheet:

http://www.diolube.com/ESTERS IN SYNTHETIC LUBRICANTS.htm


Cheat is the right word! That company lifted that paper, which I originally wrote, from the old Hatco website without giving any credit. They present it as if it is their own original work. Very low integrity in my opinion.

Tom NJ


WOW!

 

[river_rat]

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Cheat is the right word! That company lifted that paper, which I originally wrote, from the old Hatco website without giving any credit. They present it as if it is their own original work. Very low integrity in my opinion.

Tom NJ

That shows an unfortunately typical shameless lack of character. What a dirty thing to do.

Nice paper though. Very interesting and detailed.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Here's the Chem-E cheat sheet:

http://www.diolube.com/ESTERS IN SYNTHETIC LUBRICANTS.htm


Cheat is the right word! That company lifted that paper, which I originally wrote, from the old Hatco website without giving any credit. They present it as if it is their own original work. Very low integrity in my opinion.

Tom NJ
Thats inexcusable for scientists to do such a thing (not that its NEVER been done before) Did you ring them up? - I recall they are HQ'd in India.

 

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Did you ring them up?


No, I'm retired and don't need the credit. It's just a low thing to do.

Tom NJ

PS - I sent them an email today through their website asking them to remove the article.

 

[bluesubie]

ESTERS IN SYNTHETIC LUBRICANTS

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/an-overview-of-esters-in-synthetic-lubricants.94994/

-Dennis

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: dparm
I can't discuss non-sponsor websites here, but the Fuchs Titan Race products are actually just re-branded Silkolene Pro 4 Plus oils. You can get those from a lot of motorcycle retailers.

Silkolene has informed me it's identical stuff with a different label (which I confirmed by comparing the spec sheets).


So, does this stuff have a 4T-like, reduced add pack??

Also, is this exact line (Titan Race) available in anything lighter than a 5W-40?



The Silkolene guy said it is the exact same oil just relabeled.

Titan Race (either Pro S or Pro R) are available as 5w30, 5w40, 20w50, 15w50, 10w50, 10w60, and 0w20: http://www.titanrace.com/products.htm


THANKS!

 

[dparm]

Just heard back from the lube engineer. TBN is about 9.2. That's actually very usable. Motul's 300V tends to be a bit higher (10+) but Torco's SR5 is much lower (5ish).

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: dparm
Just heard back from the lube engineer. TBN is about 9.2. That's actually very usable. Motul's 300V tends to be a bit higher (10+) but Torco's SR5 is much lower (5ish).


Even though we all know it has NO problem being used as the pure race oil it is marketed as, I still think that 300V is closer to being a MAX performance street oil with that TBN.

 

[dparm]

Got an answer about seal compatibility too:



Our oils have been formulated to be compatible with modern seals. I actually use these products in my Lexus IS200 and have had no issues at all.

The Pro S 5W-40 will be a very good choice for your car.



I'm sure 300V is more than adequate. I actually just sent my 2500 mile sample to Blackstone to see how the 5w30 is holding up as compared to the 5w40 I ran last time.

 

[Bruce T]

Tom, you mention 40% ester as the maximum you would try without performing seal tests. What is the minimum percentage of ester to get higher lubricity (lower friction)? Or would it vary widely according to the type of ester?