Ester content -- when is it "too much"?

Pennzoil motor oil
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dparm

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While speaking to a lubrication engineer at Fuchs about the Titan Race line of oils, he told me it was 75% ester content. It also contains PAOs. That seems like an awful lot of group V, but I don't have anything else to compare it to.


Titan_Race_Pro_S_5w40_Web.jpg



Most companies keep their formulations secret. When is it "too much" ester for non-race use? My car does get track time but also sees street duty in downtown Chicago and sometimes on the highways.

Esters have some great lubrication properties but they need to be balanced with other additives. I'm sure there's a point of diminishing returns. Fuchs turns out great products and I'm sure this oil is great, but off the racetrack I wonder if the high ester content could cause problems with moisture retention or oxidation.

Specs, if anyone cares:
API SL
ACEA A3/B3
KV @ 100 C: 14.89
KV @ 40C: 92.4
VI: 169
Density: 0.861
Pour: -51 C
Flash: 195 C
Cold cranking @ -30C: 6500
HTHS: 4.07
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Quote:
Ester content -- when is it "too much"?


Usually when it's over $20 quart.


Like Mr. Burns would say: "Egg sellent!"
 
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Having NO background info, most would NOT run a race oil on a street driven car in the Chicago winter, if thats the plan. Some esters are more stable than others, I'm sure fuchs used TMP, Azelates and PE which combined with a basic Dpackages should be safe for 2 months in winter - at the very least. Will the PAO seal hardening effect may counteract any seal softening of a primary ester base? In a Race engine that gets periodic tears downs, its not a problem.
 
Pretty low flash point. I would be more interested in TBN for normal use myself. Esters today have much better ability to prevent moisture saturation so I would not be too worried on that front, oxidation is endemic for esters and doesn't seem to cause problems, most ester based oils are not "extended drain" oils anyway. So you are down to the last question, does your vehicle really need Fuchs race oil? does the cost justify the type of use the vehicle sees? I say probably not, and I would stick to what is working (Motul?) or an oil like RL in which you know for sure it can be used on the track as well as on the road because it is stacked with a nice TBN.
 
They claim it's perfectly suitable for street use and provides good low-temperature performance.



The products are suitable for use in all modern cars and are particularly recommended for high
performance engines where their exceptional shear
stability and wear protection help to maintain
consistent power output and reliability. The full
synthetic base fluid ensures that the products are
thermally stable and extremely resistant to oxidation,
even when stressed to the extremes of endurance.

The excellent overall performance profile ensures
optimum protection even in the most demanding
turbo-charged power units in modern performance
cars. The discerning motorist may be confident that
the products excel in all areas of performance and
ensure maximum protection under all operating
conditions.

-The inclusion of ester synthetic polar compounds
leads to improvements in lubricity and ensures
excellent anti-wear performance in all areas
particularly in respect of high lift cam-shafts and
other heavily loaded valve train components

-Excellent low temperature flow characteristics
protect valve gear, even in the most severe UK and
European winter conditions, and also improve cold
start performance

-The full synthetic formulations lead to very low
volatility, and this in turn ensures minimum piston
deposits and the lowest possible oil consumption
and maximum exhaust catalyst efficiency
 
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Go for it. It looks like it is an excellent oil. The street use issue is what I wasn't sure about. Sound like it is, so I think you found an excellent oil especially for winter.
 
I can't discuss non-sponsor websites here, but the Fuchs Titan Race products are actually just re-branded Silkolene Pro 4 Plus oils. You can get those from a lot of motorcycle retailers.

Silkolene has informed me it's identical stuff with a different label (which I confirmed by comparing the spec sheets).

As for the Titan GT1 stuff, call Fuchs and ask for a list of distributors. There is at least one in Canada and you could inquire about availability.
 
Originally Posted By: dparm

As for the Titan GT1 stuff, call Fuchs and ask for a list of distributors. There is at least one in Canada and you could inquire about availability.

We have, and 21Rouge has managed to get some Fuchs Titan GT-1 Pro Flex XTL 5w30 (took over a year, see below) but it's a whole different animal to the ester based 0W-20.
The importer wants a hugh order from us to bring in the 0W-20.
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
When is it "too much" ester for non-race use?


Depends on the ester and the intended use. My only concern with esters in street use is seal compatibility, so I prefer to balance the ester with an equal amount of PAO. Water retention is not an issue, nor is oxidative stability. Natural esters such as vegetable oils lack oxidative stability, but synthetic POEs are more oxidatively stable than PAOs.

Some esters are friendlier on seals than others, but these are usually high molecular weight esters with lower polarity and are not as suitable for 0W-X or 5W-X street oils as lighter esters. One of the most popular POEs used in motor oils is "C8C10 TMP", which has the following physical properties:

Visc @ 100C = 4.4 cSt
Visc @ 40C = 19 cSt
Visc @ -40C = 5,600 cSt
Viscosity Index = 140
Pour Point = -65F (-54C)
Flash Point = 490F ((254C)
Noack = 3%
Density @ 15.6C = 0.95

This ester has very high lubricity and is contained in some jet engine oils, but seal compatibility is a moderate concern for me. When balanced with some PAO, however, I have no worries and it becomes an ideal base oil for motor oils. I wouldn't hesitate to use it up to about 40%, with 40% PAO. Above that a series of seal compatibility tests would be prudent.

Tom NJ
 
Seems like a good starting point if balanced with a equally high or higher VI PAO plus a small amount of VIIs to produce a very high VI 0W-20 end product.
Now who makes such an oil? Motul? Fuchs?
Or perhaps the Tom_NJ basement special 0W-20? I'm interested but what's it cost?
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Now who makes such an oil? Motul? Fuchs?
Or perhaps the Tom_NJ basement special 0W-20? I'm interested but what's it cost?


grin2.gif
What's money when it comes to your car? (Okay, BITOG hat comes off.)

Tom
 
I'm waiting for a callback from their lube engineer about TBN. I'll ask about seal compatibility -- my motor is a 40V V8 so it's on my radar.

Millers CFS and Gulf Competition are the other big group V oils. Then again, there's always RLI.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: dparm
When is it "too much" ester for non-race use?


Depends on the ester and the intended use. My only concern with esters in street use is seal compatibility, so I prefer to balance the ester with an equal amount of PAO. Water retention is not an issue, nor is oxidative stability. Natural esters such as vegetable oils lack oxidative stability, but synthetic POEs are more oxidatively stable than PAOs.

Some esters are friendlier on seals than others, but these are usually high molecular weight esters with lower polarity and are not as suitable for 0W-X or 5W-X street oils as lighter esters. One of the most popular POEs used in motor oils is "C8C10 TMP", which has the following physical properties:

Visc @ 100C = 4.4 cSt
Visc @ 40C = 19 cSt
Visc @ -40C = 5,600 cSt
Viscosity Index = 140
Pour Point = -65F (-54C)
Flash Point = 490F ((254C)
Noack = 3%
Density @ 15.6C = 0.95

This ester has very high lubricity and is contained in some jet engine oils, but seal compatibility is a moderate concern for me. When balanced with some PAO, however, I have no worries and it becomes an ideal base oil for motor oils. I wouldn't hesitate to use it up to about 40%, with 40% PAO. Above that a series of seal compatibility tests would be prudent.

Tom NJ

What a shining example of the kind of post that has been far too rare at BITOG. Thanks, Tom!
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
While speaking to a lubrication engineer at Fuchs about the Titan Race line of oils, he told me it was 75% ester content. It also contains PAOs. That seems like an awful lot of group V, but I don't have anything else to compare it to.


The end product is much more important than the percentage of "ester".

When Mobil was working on the first Mobil 1, they found that they could decrease the percentage of polyol ester in relation to polyalphaolefin pretty drastically before it made a significant difference in real world performance. Or, conversely, they found it did take much polyol ester to get the benefits of ester.

I would have more concern about whether it is wise to run a racing formula on the street.
 
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