Esso XD-3 0W30, 11,000km, 2002 Pontiac Grand Am GT - 3.4L engine

[john_ertw]

I had this UOA done at Wearcheck Canada due to a concern with condensation (see my previous post).

The oil is the Esso XD-3 0W30 synthetic that's getting a lot of attention. The oil was in service from mid November to late January for 11,155km (7000 miles). The car had 76,665km when the oil was drained. The car is driven 75km each way to work (all highway with little/no traffic). Average speed is 100km/h. The Grand Am has the same engine as olympic's Montana which also has been using the same oil (see his UOA here).

Here are the results

Silicon 21
Potassium 0.9
Sodium 3.4
Fuel Glycol NEG
Water 0.179%
Soot ---
Sulfation 54
Nitration 53

1st column: Current, 2nd column: Base
Boron 3.3
Barium 0.2
Calcium 3108 3800
Magnesium 25
Molybdenum 2.8
Sodium 3.4
Phosphorus 918 1350
Sulfur 3191
Zinc 1157 1500
Visc@40°C --- 71
Visc@100°C 11.3 12.1
Oxidation 46 ---
TAN --- 2.5
TBN 5.27 12.2

1st column: Current, 2nd column: Abn
Iron 16 150
Nickel 0.0 5
Chromium 0.6 20
Titanium 0.0 ---
Copper 9.6 155
Aluminum 3.0 40
Tin 2.8 10
Lead 0.0 50
Silver 0.2 2

Wearcheck's comments:

CONTAMINATION
There is a light concentration of water present in the oil. Test for glycol is negative. Suspect possible water condensation is present or water from engine wash.

OIL CONDITION
Oil Type: ESSO XD-3 EXTRA 0W30
The oil is no longer serviceable due to the presence of contaminants

WEAR
All component wear rates are normal.


The condensation is due to the fact this car is only driven at highway speeds -99% of the time. The engine never warms up to proper operating condition. The thermostat temperature is 2 or 3 notches below normal and if you touch the top of the engine right after one of the ~1 hour drives it is fairly cold.

Do you guys think this oil could have gone longer if the condensation was not present?

 

[pitzel]

'1 or 2 notches below normal'. Get that thermostat checked out ASAP, even at highway-only driving in rural Saskatchewan, Canada, doing 100km/hr, I reach 200degF/95degC in the dead of -35C winter. (1992 GM 3.1L 60degree V6, monitored from the ECU's coolant temperature instrumentation and digitally read-out)

One of the first signs of Dex-Cool sludging is abnormal thermostat operation, so I would consider my advice imperative to follow.

I am having a slight problem understanding your formatting. Did your engine actually experience those 'abnormal' wear numbers, or is that just a lab example of abnormal wear or the thresholds that it uses to determine abnormal wear?

[ February 10, 2005, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: pitzel ]

 

[john_ertw]

Those abnormal numbers were what the lab considers abnormal. I should have been clearer. The first column are my results. The second column is additional info that the lab supplied (either abnormal limits or info on the oil supplied by Esso).

The thermostat comment is interesting. I had the intake gaskets replaced last spring due to a leak. After they completed the repair, I noticed that the coolant in the tank looked sludgy. I brought it back to the dealer and they flushed it for me. The coolant has since looked the bright orange Dexcool colour. I wouldn't be surprised though if some of the sludge remained in various parts of the cooling system.

 

[berge]

quote:

---

Originally posted by john_ertw:

The condensation is due to the fact this car is only driven at highway speeds -99% of the time. The engine never warms up to proper operating condition. The thermostat temperature is 2 or 3 notches below normal and if you touch the top of the engine right after one of the ~1 hour drives it is fairly cold.

---

that does not sound right.

 

[pitzel]

Hehe, a ME asking an EE about mechanical wear

Seriously, the numbers look okay, even considering the water contamination. Root-cause analysis definitely should focus your efforts on trying to find where that water is coming from as condensation in a highway driven engine is severely abnormal, even if its just 100km/hr on the 401 in the dead of winter.

The intake plenum gets lots of cooling from the intake air that flows through it, so its perfectly acceptable that it remains cool even after being on the highway. In fact, you probably even have a heated throttle body on that car just for anti-icing because the actual intake structure receives so little heat from the rest of the engine. Shut the engine down, let the heat soak through the engine for 10-20 minutes, and trust me, you will burn your hand if you try the same.

ertw, eh?

 

[john_ertw]

quote:

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Originally posted by berge:

quote:

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Originally posted by john_ertw:

The condensation is due to the fact this car is only driven at highway speeds -99% of the time. The engine never warms up to proper operating condition. The thermostat temperature is 2 or 3 notches below normal and if you touch the top of the engine right after one of the ~1 hour drives it is fairly cold.

---

that does not sound right.

---

That's what I orignally thought.

I was thinking about the comment about the thermostat a little more and am starting to think that may not be the case. In my previous post, it was mentioned by Olympic that he also noticed the same condensation in his 3.4L GM engine. It may be due to the design of this particular engine?

When I do city driving, the temperature does increase (in stop and go it will even go above the normal temperature with the winter cold). After this sort of driving, the gunk I saw under my oil cap (see post in link above) disappeared.

I noticed the condensation during a cold snap that lasted 2 weeks and had temperatures of -20C. That is what prompted me to complete the UOA.

Would anyone be able to comment if a thermostat should open and close once the engine reaches operating temperature in order to maintain the temperature in cold weather? What I mean is if the weather is so cold that the engine temperature will drop when the thermostat is open, should it close in order to let the eninge warm back up to whatever temperature is desired?

Also, how do the results look if one disregards the condensation? Would this oil be suitable for additional milage?

 

[pitzel]

In the 3.1, I get temperature swings from approximately 195degF to 209degF, measured digitally from the ECU coolant temp sensor. At -40C operation, with no headwind, the temperature stays pretty much at 201degF and the thermostat never does open. Of course, thats with my car internal heater running full blast.

If you monitor the ECU, you can definitely, at least in my 3.1 (which is very similar to your 3.4) see the temperature cycling up and down within the thermostat's hysteresis range on warmer days or during city driving that puts a lot more transient load on the engine.

Could be an engine design issue. Do you have access to any way of monitoring your ECU and instruments?

 

[olympic]

The wear numbers look real good and so does the oil. A couple things grab my attenion though and that's the
I've had bad luck with thermostats in my 3.4's. My 01 Montana has had its replaced several times. I've tried OEM and aftermarket thermostats with little luck. After a couple years they stick open and the engine wont warm up. So I recommend you replace yours and see what happens.

Once you get those issues taken care of you'll be in good shape. You're oxidation and nitration numbers are higher than I'm used to but I think you could go 15,000km. That's the OCI I use on my Vibes and they do mostly city driving.

FYI my 01 Montana is currently sitting at 35,000km on XD3. I replaced the thermostat half way through this OCI because it wasn't working right. I'll send in a sample at 40k and see what it looks like.

 

[berge]

quote:

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Originally posted by john_ertw:

Would anyone be able to comment if a thermostat should open and close once the engine reaches operating temperature in order to maintain the temperature in cold weather? What I mean is if the weather is so cold that the engine temperature will drop when the thermostat is open, should it close in order to let the eninge warm back up to whatever temperature is desired?
[/QB]

---

yes.

 

[john_ertw]

quote:

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Originally posted by olympic:
A couple things grab my attenion though and that's the strong>

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It's good to know that all those symptoms can be traced back to a thermostat. I don't think that my thermostat is always stuck open. The vehicle does warm up pretty quick which has me believe it does close when cold enough, but maybe it doesn't open/close at the exact temperature that it should.

quote:

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Originally posted by olympic:
Also, the engine is running rich and alot of fuel is getting into the oil. Hows your mileage?

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One thing I did which probably wasn't the best thing to do... immediately before draining the oil the car was allowed to idle for an extended period to let the oil circulate and warm up. This may or may not have anything to do with the fuel. Milage is fine... Before the cold season I was getting 8.0L/100km, but that probably went up to around 9.0L/100km with the winter weather.

quote:

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Originally posted by olympic:
I've had bad luck with thermostats in my 3.4's.

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I also have an Olds minivan with the 3.4L. During the same cold weather, I noticed that it also had a condensation build up under the oil fill cap. That van also does not warm up to the normal operating temperature in cold weather. Since I saw the same conditions in both vehicles I assumed it's normal for GM's 3.4L.

One other point on the minivan, it always seems to take a little while to warm up (compared to the Grand Am). It's been like that as long as I can remember (at least 3 or 4 years). I thought it a little strange that it took longer than the Grand Am to warm up, but dismissed it thinking it was due to the van's design.

quote:

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Originally posted by pitzel:
Do you have access to any way of monitoring your ECU and instruments?

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Unfortuanately I don't think I'd be able to get my hands on one. I will try now with all this info leading to a bad thermostat.

 

[olympic]

The minivans do take alot longer to warm up because they hold alot more coolant. Plus you normally have both front/rear heaters running during warmup.

The first few t-stat failures I had, the only symptom was the gauge wouldn't go past the 1/4 mark when noramlly it would sit just below 1/2. This last time, the symptom was the same but when I'd let the van idle after driving, the gauge would drop to zero and I couldn't get any heat from the heater.

So I think the first few times the spring just got weak and couldn't force the T-stat closed, or perhaps some crud got lodged in the seal. This last time it probably got stuck open.

There was always a little condensation on the oil cap in cold weather, but with the stuck T-stat, there was alot more. I could even see some down in the valvetrain.

I don't know if the Grand Am engine is set up different, but on the 3.4L vans the T-stat is a real pain to change. You have to remove the intake elbow, air box lid, throttle body and misc other hoses and brackets. It takes me about 1.5-2 hours to do it.

 

[john_ertw]

quote:

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Originally posted by olympic:
The first few t-stat failures I had, the only symptom was the gauge wouldn't go past the 1/4 mark when noramlly it would sit just below 1/2. This last time, the symptom was the same but when I'd let the van idle after driving, the gauge would drop to zero and I couldn't get any heat from the heater.

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My symptoms are nowhere near as bad as you describe (in terms of temperatures). I really don't think that my t-stat is bad, I just think the temperature drop in the winter is due to GM's design.

I changed the oil right when my car's oil life monitor light turned on. It was just a coincedence that it turned on a few days before I planned to change it. I think I'm going to start using it to tell me when to change my oil (using XD-3 synth of course). It seems to give me a little bit of a safety factor which is good. I'd rather change the oil slightly more often than necessary that push it right to it's absolute limit.

 

[JohnBrowning]

You have an air leak some place silicone was way too high!!! You fuel loading is also way too high!! You should have very little fuel loading with you driveing cycle! I also think that you might need to replace your thermosat if you are haveing issues with not reaching operateing temp.! Your thermostat should not open untill you hit operateing temp. your might be stuck open. I sugest you replace it with a motorad unit. They fail in the open postion unlike most thermostats.

 

[haley10]

Recently changed the thermostat in my 3800 Series II. Using the diagnostic, the temp. would get to normal in the shop, but drop to 170F and never get above that in normal driving. New thermostat fixed the problem. Not unusual in a GM to have a marginal thermostat.

The heater and defrost worked fine. This 20-25F running too cold wasn't so noticable to most people, no CEL either. I bet it wasn't good for the oil though. Only two bars down on the analog factory guage.

[ February 15, 2005, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: haley10 ]