EPA rejects bid to relax ethanol mandate
- Thread starter Volvohead
- Start date
- Status
Y\uu get what you vote for.
The MAJOR problem with Ethanol in this country, is how we get it.
Corn is one of the WORST things you can make ethanol from(In terms of production costs, and the return on the energy put in to production.., but until we get some real $$ put into Cellulosic ethanol, it's (corn) the most readily available crop for conversion.
With Cellulosic, you breakdown and convert the cellulose, so you can use nearly any plant, and nearly the entire plant.
you can get about 10 times the ethanol from an acre of switch grass, than an acre of corn.
But alas, we have a very powerful, and Moneyed group of Corn Lobbyists in this country.
Corn is one of the WORST things you can make ethanol from(In terms of production costs, and the return on the energy put in to production.., but until we get some real $$ put into Cellulosic ethanol, it's (corn) the most readily available crop for conversion.
With Cellulosic, you breakdown and convert the cellulose, so you can use nearly any plant, and nearly the entire plant.
you can get about 10 times the ethanol from an acre of switch grass, than an acre of corn.
But alas, we have a very powerful, and Moneyed group of Corn Lobbyists in this country.
Breaking down the numbers, roughly 1/4 of Michigan's corn harvest was used for animal feed. 1/2 was used for ethanol production. That leaves 1/4 for everything else.
Ethanol from corn kernels only is a silly idea since it's debatable whether or not there's a net energy gain after all the petroleum-based fertilizer, petro-pumped water, and petro-fueled harvesting and refining equipment is factored in.
It's a tough topic, that's for sure.
Ethanol from corn kernels only is a silly idea since it's debatable whether or not there's a net energy gain after all the petroleum-based fertilizer, petro-pumped water, and petro-fueled harvesting and refining equipment is factored in.
It's a tough topic, that's for sure.
The rest of the world is starving and we are converting corn to fuel so we can drive our cars.
Also of interest that in less than 10 years we will be the worlds largest oil producer even more than Saudi Arabia. Due to American innovation. However will will still need to import for another 10 years. And currently most of the oil from the middle east goes to China and their 1.3 Billion people.
So the next time there is a war in the middle east over oil, let the Chinese fight the war.
Also of interest that in less than 10 years we will be the worlds largest oil producer even more than Saudi Arabia. Due to American innovation. However will will still need to import for another 10 years. And currently most of the oil from the middle east goes to China and their 1.3 Billion people.
So the next time there is a war in the middle east over oil, let the Chinese fight the war.
Originally Posted By: Donald
The rest of the world is starving and we are converting corn to fuel so we can drive our cars.
Do you really believe that U.S. ethanol production is tied into world hunger? If so, you're woefully misinformed. I think the ethanol mandate is a bad idea as well, but just making things up doesn't really help...
The rest of the world is starving and we are converting corn to fuel so we can drive our cars.
Do you really believe that U.S. ethanol production is tied into world hunger? If so, you're woefully misinformed. I think the ethanol mandate is a bad idea as well, but just making things up doesn't really help...
MolaKule
Staff member
This is what happens when the government interferes and subsidizes any facet of the marketplace. That industry then accumulates funds and connections and lobbying power.
I suggest we use science and mathematics to make rational decisions on energy sources.
Let's determine the total birth-to-death cost to produce each energy source, its availability, its energy density, its transportability, etc. An Excel spreadsheet matrix could be used to generate calculations and graphs.
This would include bio energy sources, wind, solar, nuclear, oil, gas, etc.
I suggest we use science and mathematics to make rational decisions on energy sources.
Let's determine the total birth-to-death cost to produce each energy source, its availability, its energy density, its transportability, etc. An Excel spreadsheet matrix could be used to generate calculations and graphs.
This would include bio energy sources, wind, solar, nuclear, oil, gas, etc.
Last edited:
MolaKule
Staff member
In the meantime, I think the EPA needs to get out of the way so we can tap out own resources.
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: Donald
The rest of the world is starving and we are converting corn to fuel so we can drive our cars.
Do you really believe that U.S. ethanol production is tied into world hunger? If so, you're woefully misinformed. I think the ethanol mandate is a bad idea as well, but just making things up doesn't really help...
To contend that diverting nearly half of the American corn crop for fuel alcohol production has no impact on hunger in the world's poor countries is laughable to anyone with any education in economics.
Originally Posted By: Donald
The rest of the world is starving and we are converting corn to fuel so we can drive our cars.
Do you really believe that U.S. ethanol production is tied into world hunger? If so, you're woefully misinformed. I think the ethanol mandate is a bad idea as well, but just making things up doesn't really help...
To contend that diverting nearly half of the American corn crop for fuel alcohol production has no impact on hunger in the world's poor countries is laughable to anyone with any education in economics.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
This is what happens when the government interferes and subsidizes any facet of the marketplace. That industry then accumulates funds and connections and lobbying power.
I suggest we use science and mathematics to make rational decisions on energy sources.
Let's determine the total birth-to-death cost to produce each energy source, its availability, its energy density, its transportability, etc. An Excel spreadsheet matrix could be used to generate calculations and graphs.
This would include bio energy sources, wind, solar, nuclear, oil, gas, etc.
Politicians (is that word censored?) are worried about what words they use, whereas you're recommending they worry about what numbers they use. So far, I've seen little evidence that will ever change.
This is what happens when the government interferes and subsidizes any facet of the marketplace. That industry then accumulates funds and connections and lobbying power.
I suggest we use science and mathematics to make rational decisions on energy sources.
Let's determine the total birth-to-death cost to produce each energy source, its availability, its energy density, its transportability, etc. An Excel spreadsheet matrix could be used to generate calculations and graphs.
This would include bio energy sources, wind, solar, nuclear, oil, gas, etc.
Politicians (is that word censored?) are worried about what words they use, whereas you're recommending they worry about what numbers they use. So far, I've seen little evidence that will ever change.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: Donald
The rest of the world is starving and we are converting corn to fuel so we can drive our cars.
Do you really believe that U.S. ethanol production is tied into world hunger? If so, you're woefully misinformed. I think the ethanol mandate is a bad idea as well, but just making things up doesn't really help...
To contend that diverting nearly half of the American corn crop for fuel alcohol production has no impact on hunger in the world's poor countries is laughable to anyone with any education in economics.
Were less people starving worldwide before fuel ethanol production started consuming a quarter (not half, distillers grains are not merely thrown away after ethanol production) of the American corn crop? Or were more people starving?
Ethanol production spurred massive investments in crop genetics that has doubled corn production per acre in the past 35 years. Never doubt the ability of the American farmer to overproduce. There is plenty of corn to go around for both food AND fuel.
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: Donald
The rest of the world is starving and we are converting corn to fuel so we can drive our cars.
Do you really believe that U.S. ethanol production is tied into world hunger? If so, you're woefully misinformed. I think the ethanol mandate is a bad idea as well, but just making things up doesn't really help...
To contend that diverting nearly half of the American corn crop for fuel alcohol production has no impact on hunger in the world's poor countries is laughable to anyone with any education in economics.
Were less people starving worldwide before fuel ethanol production started consuming a quarter (not half, distillers grains are not merely thrown away after ethanol production) of the American corn crop? Or were more people starving?
Ethanol production spurred massive investments in crop genetics that has doubled corn production per acre in the past 35 years. Never doubt the ability of the American farmer to overproduce. There is plenty of corn to go around for both food AND fuel.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
To contend that diverting nearly half of the American corn crop for fuel alcohol production has no impact on hunger in the world's poor countries is laughable to anyone with any education in economics.
Why should Americans care about food for the world's poor countries? It is not American's responsibility to care for the welfare of others.
To contend that diverting nearly half of the American corn crop for fuel alcohol production has no impact on hunger in the world's poor countries is laughable to anyone with any education in economics.
Why should Americans care about food for the world's poor countries? It is not American's responsibility to care for the welfare of others.
Unfortunately the refiners have a lot of money invested in it also. You wouldn't think the farmers could completely lobby for this? I remember 4-5 years ago ethanol plants were springing up in Neb,IA, and everywhere. Millions of dollars to build and now maintain them and reap the profits. On a lighter note, does anyone use or have a preference for an ethanol fuel conditioner? I just started using the Lucas product but found one called Ethanol Defense. I found an ethanol and alcohol free premium recently and had great returns with it. I just wish it was closer to home.
I work for a very large chemical company that received a lot of money from the government to spend on research and prodcution of so called green energy initiatives. We have a bunch of down sizing coming before the end of the year, guess what is going to be hit the hardest by far--these same subsidized industries that cannot stand on their own without our tax dollars artificially propping them up. As they were building one of the huge plants we would joke (yet disgusted by the futility) that in five years we would have one of the nicest warehouses in the midwest and nothing more. I am just glad I was not foolish enough to move to a different job in these areas like some of my friends did. They bought into the hype and bull [censored] managers were selling and just 3 weeks ago 3 guys I used to work with got notice they have until the end of the year to find another job within the company or they are done December 31st. They are just a few of many. Popular Mechanics had a really good write-up on alternative energy options, ethanol is a loser even in best case scenarios, we should invest more in tide, river, and other water generating R&D. I have also worked on multiple project around wind turbines and people have no idea the multitude of problems these turbines have in long term reliability. Just stop and think about the physics involved the blade assemblies of those sizes setting on such a relatively small load bearing contact point and you can imagine...needless to say most R&D has been cut in that area as well. The good news is in our area a niche job and training has become a hot area--wind turbine maintainence.
As others have suggested, I too think the ethanol refiners are responsible for this rejection.
With the poor corn crop this year, corn growers should have ample demand for their produce. No good reason why they would reject it.
The only ones who would lose some business if the ethanol mandate were temporarily relaxed is the refiners.
I know small family producers (few hundered cattle) who are suffering from the high feed prices this year.
With the poor corn crop this year, corn growers should have ample demand for their produce. No good reason why they would reject it.
The only ones who would lose some business if the ethanol mandate were temporarily relaxed is the refiners.
I know small family producers (few hundered cattle) who are suffering from the high feed prices this year.
Originally Posted By: Loobed
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
To contend that diverting nearly half of the American corn crop for fuel alcohol production has no impact on hunger in the world's poor countries is laughable to anyone with any education in economics.
Why should Americans care about food for the world's poor countries? It is not American's responsibility to care for the welfare of others.
You're right.
Why should anyone care about anyone else?
Why should us rich folk worry about the poor of the world?
If they starve, oh well.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
To contend that diverting nearly half of the American corn crop for fuel alcohol production has no impact on hunger in the world's poor countries is laughable to anyone with any education in economics.
Why should Americans care about food for the world's poor countries? It is not American's responsibility to care for the welfare of others.
You're right.
Why should anyone care about anyone else?
Why should us rich folk worry about the poor of the world?
If they starve, oh well.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
