EPA possibly goes after the Start/Stop System!

[SwampSurvivor]

I had a loaner subaru and it reported estimated amount of fuel saved with auto stall. And it was miniscule. Like less than a gallon.

Starters aren't the worst to replace - though I hope I never have to do my Grand Marquis starter again - but I'm more concerned with replacing the ring gear on the flexplate. You have to break the engine and transmsission apart to do that. Not a cheap repair. Certainly not cheap enough to be offset by fuel savings.

 

[Lockasiam]

DC metro is exception. Not as good as Chicago etc. but most America is rural. Building train network in Europe is easy considering that France is smaller than Texas. Also, Europe is far more urban.

Europe being more urban isn't much of an excuse for no transit within American cities. More high speed train connections between major metros in the US wouldn't hurt anyone either. Rails have lower maintenance costs than highways, less downtime, and gets more idiots off the road. Emphasis on the last bullet point

 

[Hohn]

Remote starts? There is no way I could save that much fuel in Atlas as my neighbor burns on average winter morning idling her Explorer and now her GX550.
EPA encouraged S/S but didn’t encourage electric heaters that would supplement remote starts.
Add to that excessive weight due to incremental passive security gains which then is off set by worse dynamic performance. New M5 is perfect example of this insanity. Marginal gains in emissions by adding 1000lbs bcs. it has to be hybrid which than has its own recycling issues.

Than AGAIN, let’s go back what I have initially said: until China and India tackle their pollution seriously, these are irrelevant gains. In the meantime we are adding initial cost and long term maintenance cost that will drive people against mandates that might actually make sense and than reverse any gains. Part of the reason why right wing parties are gaining footing in EU are these mandates that basically eliminated affordable small car which was staple of European transportation.

Indeed, preheating the engine electrically is not only more energy efficient but saves a ton of wear and tear on the engine, too.

If they really cared about the planet and emissions, instead of stupid start stop features, they would mandate high powered coolant heaters (1400w+) that can get coolant warm even in really cold temps. Put THOSE on a “remote and a timer. Then instead of idling and wasting fuel, you’d just go start a prewarmed engine and have instant heat as well as fewer emissions and less fuel wasted.

 

[loneryder]

10 billion is still 10 billion. It's not like starters are failing any sooner than starters of the early 2000's. I would argue that hybrid powertrains are harder on engines with regards to oil burning and people aren't complaining about that.

Manufacturers who haven't already will just add a button to turn it off.

So you trust that 10 billion number??

 

[edyvw]

Indeed, preheating the engine electrically is not only more energy efficient but saves a ton of wear and tear on the engine, too.

If they really cared about the planet and emissions, instead of stupid start stop features, they would mandate high powered coolant heaters (1400w+) that can get coolant warm even in really cold temps. Put THOSE on a “remote and a timer. Then instead of idling and wasting fuel, you’d just go start a prewarmed engine and have instant heat as well as fewer emissions and less fuel wasted.

I didn’t even think about those. BMW X5 diesel’s have electric HVAC heater. Until coolant reaches 50c, it provides interior heat. You get full hot air 2sec after starting vehicle. I had that on my 2013 X5 35d. Still can’t get over that car.

 

[loneryder]

Europe being more urban isn't much of an excuse for no transit within American cities. More high speed train connections between major metros in the US wouldn't hurt anyone either. Rails have lower maintenance costs than highways, less downtime, and gets more idiots off the road. Emphasis on the last bullet point

DC is a perfect example of destroying access to the city via train. There used to be RR rights of way from every direction towards and into DC. They tore them all up and made bike paths. If they had just left them there and installed more tracks most of suburban Washington could commute into where they worked. Now they have to spend hundreds of billions to run the Metro anywhere. They had to build raised platform tracks and stations to go through Tysons and then billions to lay 2 tracks in the median of the Dulles toll road. This has happened all over the country. Chicago had numerous rights of way into the city in the past.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Take into consideration there is a cottage industry of aftermarket solutions.
I had on VW Atlas reverse cable. Basically, you connect to the button. and then harness that was initially connected to button. Basically, it tells the ECU that you pressed the button to turn it off. If you press the button, it turns it on.
I mean, on long lights or train crossings, I would press it if we are talking several minutes.

So I think this is the key. The OEM's are getting benefit from the supposed CAFE benefit, when most users simply bypass the system anyway. They all have a button. I imagine most owners just press it. Or buy the aftermarket solution. Or detach the hood latch sensor. Or whatever.

So if its mostly being bypassed, why continue?

 

[SC Maintenance]

DC is a perfect example of destroying access to the city via train. There used to be RR rights of way from every direction towards and into DC. They tore them all up and made bike paths. If they had just left them there and installed more tracks most of suburban Washington could commute into where they worked. Now they have to spend hundreds of billions to run the Metro anywhere. They had to build raised platform tracks and stations to go through Tysons and then billions to lay 2 tracks in the median of the Dulles toll road. This has happened all over the country. Chicago had numerous rights of way into the city in the past.

Don't even get me started. Passenger rail is supposed to have right of way over freight rail on shared lines, but its never given. And no one does anything about it.

 

[loneryder]

Don't even get me started. Passenger rail is supposed to have right of way over freight rail on shared lines, but its never given. And no one does anything about it.

Freight makes money. Amtrak doesn't.

 

[Lockasiam]

Don't even get me started

get started in another thread? i'd like to keep this going without locking this thread for getting off topic

 

[SC Maintenance]

get started in another thread? i'd like to keep this going without locking this thread for getting off topic

You usually want the first post to be coherent, meaning you don't want me to start it.

 

[andrew_j]

Loss of A/C is a real annoyance in hot humid weather.

In extreme temps(hot/cold) our VW disables auto start/stop. Non issue if implemented correctly.

 

[MNgopher]

Own two vehicles with start stop. Don't mind it on either. Also own a plug in hybrid and it does exactly what we bought it for. Haven't experienced battery replacements that are any different than the pre-start stop. Haven't replaced a starter yet on either. Last starter I did was at lower miles than either one of the vehicles I now own...

Nobody mandated start stop on any manufacturer. It was an option that provided better CAFE numbers. How manufacturers got there was up to them.

The hatred for CAFE is always interesting. Does anyone think we would had seen the massive increase in power AND fuel efficiency that has come with the adoption of direct injection, etc...? I forgot, those items of progress aren't favored on this board.

The concept we can't or shouldn't do something because India or China isn't or won't do it is also bizarre to me. Do we also want the same clean air (sarcasm} that residents of those countries get to enjoy? We seem to be far enough removed from when air quality actually was bad in most of this country that folks have forgotten. Funny how we all choose to live where the quality of life is what it is....

 

[edyvw]

So I think this is the key. The OEM's are getting benefit from the supposed CAFE benefit, when most users simply bypass the system anyway. They all have a button. I imagine most owners just press it. Or buy the aftermarket solution. Or detach the hood latch sensor. Or whatever.

So if its mostly being bypassed, why continue?

So, I don’t think “majority “ of them is bypassed. On 2018-2023 VW’s it is super easy to bypass them with cable. 5min job. 2023 and after, you must shut it off using only screen. So I bet there is software workaround, but that makes it harder for average person. On 3rd and new generation Pilot, I think it is also just cable bypass. So, yeah some are easy, some not.
Problem with this is human nature. Most people are oblivious to issues around them. And one thing people really hate is someone telling them what to do. S/S from that standpoint is absolutely the worst solution bcs. it reminds people that government wants you to behave certain way. If they went either way electric heaters most people would never know.
Same policy thinkers who impose penalties on Colorado bcs. air pollution that comes from China via jet stream.

 

[UncleDave]

I have never understood the hate for start/stop.

In a non hybrid implementation stopping the engine kills the ac compressor- when it's 110 out thats seriously annoying.

My 04 RX400 H did all this really well considering when it came out.

 

[edyvw]

Own two vehicles with start stop. Don't mind it on either. Also own a plug in hybrid and it does exactly what we bought it for. Haven't experienced battery replacements that are any different than the pre-start stop. Haven't replaced a starter yet on either. Last starter I did was at lower miles than either one of the vehicles I now own...

Nobody mandated start stop on any manufacturer. It was an option that provided better CAFE numbers. How manufacturers got there was up to them.

The hatred for CAFE is always interesting. Does anyone think we would had seen the massive increase in power AND fuel efficiency that has come with the adoption of direct injection, etc...? I forgot, those items of progress aren't favored on this board.

The concept we can't or shouldn't do something because India or China isn't or won't do it is also bizarre to me. Do we also want the same clean air (sarcasm} that residents of those countries get to enjoy? We seem to be far enough removed from when air quality actually was bad in most of this country that folks have forgotten. Funny how we all choose to live where the quality of life is what it is....

DI is “direct” consequence of chase for performance and it is present in automotive world since 1998. DI has huge issues with NOx and it was black listed by EPA for a long time. It is only recently that appliance manufacturers managed to comply with NOx requirements in the US.
If you are chasing air quality, port injection is better.

 

[Lockasiam]

DI is “direct” consequence of chase for performance and it is present in automotive world since 1998. DI has huge issues with NOx and it was black listed by EPA for a long time. It is only recently that appliance manufacturers managed to comply with NOx requirements in the US.
If you are chasing air quality, port injection is better.

DI seems like it's trying to go up on an absolute plateau of emissions/performance/maintenance ratio. Modern port injected engines are the best they can get but emissions keeps getting tougher for some reason

 

[MNgopher]

DI is “direct” consequence of chase for performance and it is present in automotive world since 1998. DI has huge issues with NOx and it was black listed by EPA for a long time. It is only recently that appliance manufacturers managed to comply with NOx requirements in the US.
If you are chasing air quality, port injection is better.

Does DI unlock increased fuel efficiency? As in all things, there are tradeoffs like the the NOx issues.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

So you trust that 10 billion number??

It's not my number but the OP.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

In extreme temps(hot/cold) our VW disables auto start/stop. Non issue if implemented correctly.

As does ours but it's still annoying. Plus it causes the windows to fill up much sooner. At least living in Atlanta. Our cars came equipped with a button which disables it.