Engineers and Beancounters

[Ugly3]

Why do people think that product quality (or lack thereof) is a function of the beancounters in a company?

Having been in industry for more than 40 years I can just about tell you how it really works.

The beancounters collect the numbers. The numbers say the profit is too low on some product or product line. The General Manager gets to the "line" functions (Marketing, Operations, Engineering, Purchasing, etc.) and explains the problem.

One or more of the "line" functions makes proposed changes to what they are doing which are designed to fix the problem.

The beancounters collect the numbers and see if the proposed solutions will fix the problem.

If so, a change is made. If not, then the process is done again.

No "staff" person (beancounter, Human Resources, Quality Assurance, etc) would ever change a product spec on a unilateral basis. The "staff" people inform "line" people of what is going on and the "line" people take the actions.

If product quality suffers it is a result of management action. No single dicipline is responsible, not the Engineers, not the Purchasing group, not the Operations people, it is a management decision.

 

[427Z06]

Man, are you outta' touch with reality.

 

[labman]

I have set in those meetings. It seldom is the engineering people that push for lowering standards. Occasionally production, but most often accounting. Upper management too often comes from accounting, and even if not, over values accounting because they provide many of the answers.

Of course few consumers would spend what it would take to buy what the engineers would produce left to their own devices.

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by labman:
Of course few consumers would spend what it would take to buy what the engineers would produce left to their own devices.

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This is one of those myths that have no merit. I could give you real world experiences, but I'd be typing all weekend, which by the way, I have to work, while management will be frolicking on their boats at the lake.

 

[brianl703]

quote:

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Originally posted by labman:
Of course few consumers would spend what it would take to buy what the engineers would produce left to their own devices.

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I don't believe that's true.

A fine example of which is the desk telephone. You remember them--the old Bell desk telephones that have the metal base and a real gong ringer. It's known as a 2500 phone because that's the model number it had.

AT&T, or Lucent, or Avaya, or whatever name they're going under, makes something that LOOKS like a 2500 phone, but it's all made of cheap plastic with a chirp ringer like that found in the best of the Wal-Mart $10 phones (which, by the way, last about a year, if that).

It's total garbage, but what's worse is that they want $40 for one AND it's "Made in China".

I found a company by the name of Cortelco (used to be part of ITT) who still makes 2500 phones that are pretty close to the original Bell design--parts will interchange between the phones. It's got a gong ringer (with the volume control slider!) and a metal base.

How much does Cortelco want for their 2500 phone? $40, and it's made in the USA.

Let's see here. Avaya sells a piece of crap for $40 (probably with a 1-year warranty), and Cortelco sells a decent phone for the same price (with a 5-year warranty).

I guess the beancounters are in charge at Avaya, and the engineers are in charge at Cortelco.

I have a few of these Cortelco 2500 phones in my house, and I'm quite happy with them.

It's nice to hear a REAL bell ringer when the phone rings instead of a chirp.

Only thing is I've NEVER seen these Cortelco phones in retail stores. I guess it's like Auto-RX in that regard...those who know, use it.

 

[ikeepmychevytoo]

Thank you Brian... I've seen that type of phones at the Radioshack once, only in black. Next week they were disappeared. Now I know they're being produced somewhere.

I'm an industrial designer, and if one asks me to name the ten most 'good' designs of the last decade I'd call that Henry Dreyfuss' design among them. A keystone in product ergonomy.

For the chirping issue... I wouldn't know there would be people thinking like me. It's not the chirping for me but I hate the testeless sınus waveform alarm sounds. For me it is norrowing the lifes bandwith and norrowing down the life itself!

I had the original rotator design but mom is too lazy to use it and you can't enter extension numbers on corporational numbers. So I was looking for those with keypad and tone dials to take out the chriping one on the paralel.

 

[Ugly3]

Maybe this is why you don't see Cortelco products in retail stores. From the Cortelco web site.

Today, Cortelco is committed to fulfilling the communication needs of businesses and organizations worldwide. Our commitment to product innovation has helped us to grow and offer an expanding line of “Smart Solution” business telephone products and services for a wide range of business, corporate and university clients. We have formed a cohesive world-wide distribution network with partnerships that foster our same concern for giving you the highest quality service available.

 

[Ugly3]

The three top guys at Cortelco are 2 operations guys and a beancounter.

 

[brianl703]

I kind of figured that's why their products aren't in the retail channels--they concentrate on sales to businesses.

Same reason you won't find a Panasonic PBX at Home Depot (even though it can come close to the same price as that "high end" Nutone intercom crap they sell, and do a lot more).

It's alright if the top guy(s) are beancounters. As long as they listen to the engineers!

 

[Shannow]

Can anyone say "Pinto" ?

Sure, the beancounters don't make "engineering decisions", but sure as sh!t engineers make decisions based on beancounter's directions/suggestions.

At work, we have a "zero based budget", which makes perfect sense to us engineers, as well as the beancounters.

I provide the technical justification for my plant, and estimates of costs. They get rolled up together into the draf budget, and presented to the beancounters.

They say "wrong, it's too high". So my managers (also "engineers") revise it, deleting items. Resubmit, reject, resubmit, reject, then......amazinglyafter a few iterations, the engineering department decide to ask for the correct amount and it's approved.

Naturally, when things mess up, we cop it in the neck, for not budgetting for rectification before it dies.

 

[Pablo]

I've been at it for 25+ years now.

1) Engineers make mistakes. Engineers makes LOTS of mistakes. Engineers makes LOTS OF EXPENSIVE mistakes.

2) Accounting has a job to do. But they often aren't doing it. Sure they are doing exactly what Shannow and the others say. There always needs to be cost control, but they look at the PRICE of hard things, not the total COST of hard and soft things. Sure they do an OK job with accounts payable and receivable, but they are even NOT nearly getting good data at where the actual costs are coming from. Costs of failure, cost of air freighting because of late product because horror of horrors...Engineering made one of their infrequent mistakes....yet somehow accounting focuses on "we can't airfreight" anymore. Can't see the bloody forest!

So who's fault? Yep, Management! So while, it doesn't go down as Ugly3 sees it, ultimately it's management with their d&cks in their hands.

How do you make an Engineer drop 50 IQ points? Make him/her a manager!

OK I'm a manager for an international manufacturing company, so I know.......

 

[brianl703]

quote:

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Originally posted by Pablo:
So who's fault? Yep, Management! So while, it doesn't go down as Ugly3 sees it, ultimately it's management with their d&cks in their hands.

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YES! Who hired that incompetent engineer? Management.

I always love how some management types try to blame their problems on lower-level employees--that they (or another manager) hired.

 

[labman]

I especially like the small businessmen that have selected, hired, trained, motivated, and supervised al the employees themselves, yet complain of never having good help. To me, when a manager complains about the help, it is like confessing incompetence.

Note, I have been a manager. I inherited most of my employees and tried to get their best out of them.

 

[Ugly3]

labman - To me, when a manager complains about the help, it is like confessing incompetence.

Now this is the truth. Bravo!

Another one I like is: Any company that has a union deserves a union.

 

[salesrep]

Pablo writes.
2) Accounting has a job to do. But they often aren't doing it. Sure they are doing exactly what Shannow and the others say. There always needs to be cost control, but they look at the PRICE of hard things, not the total COST of hard and soft things. Sure they do an OK job with accounts payable and receivable, but they are even NOT nearly getting good data at where the actual costs are coming from. Costs of failure,

I could not agree more Pablo. Much is lost in communication. As an example when talking to a small operation with a single owner he "communicates" with himself and makes a decision based on cost vs price. Conversely I may be able to convince a larger company's eng or maintenence dept. that a barrel of our hydraulic fluid at $489 a barrel is a better value........ But then we have to go to the beancounters who still see $340 per vs. $489 per
many of which just don't get it.
Many times I just don't see them working together and communicating, sometimes worse they act as adversaries.

 

[Ugly3]

salesrep - But then we have to go to the beancounters who still see $340 per vs. $489 per

Any company that "allows" beancounters to decide what hydraulic fluid is used is in big trouble. The only exception I can think of (not that it's the only exception) is a case where a viable program costs more to implement than the company can afford to invest. A drum of hydraulic fluid certainly is not that case.

 

[salesrep]

Agreed ugly. But I run into it all the time. Many times the eng. dept. just don't want to rock the boat though they know change is what is best. Back to the communication/adversarily thang.

 

[XS650]

quote:

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Originally posted by Pablo:
I've been at it for 25+ years now.


2) Accounting has a job to do. But they often aren't doing it. Sure they are doing exactly what Shannow and the others say. There always needs to be cost control, but they look at the PRICE of hard things,

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Accountant: A person who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.


An accountant friend told me that.

 

[labman]

One of the best ones happened to my friends down the street at another unit of the company I worked for. They were running their machines 24/7 overloaded and still not reaching production targets. The one 3 phase motor blew 2 fuses. The engineer requisitioned 2 new ones and got the machine on line again. The next month the motor blew all 3 fuses. Again the operator stood around while they ordered fuses. Some sharp eyed accountant realized they increased their fuse order by 50% and cut it back to 2 fuses. ''If they got by with 2 last month, they can this month too.'' So when the 2 fuses came, the operator got to continue to stand around while they sent out for one more fuse.

Of course, I was eventually thrown out on my ear for wasting money on having fuses on hand.