Engine rattle at startup - Toyota REFUSES to fix

[Mr Nice]

This Scion tC reminds me of the BITOG member that bought a brand new Camry that was pinging and he traded it in within a year of buying it.

I forget his name.

I'm sure someone will remember his name.

 

[VVTinme]

Originally Posted By: MrCritical
Any dealer who attempts a repair on this car under warranty after the service rep said "it's normal" is most likely going to eat an expensive repair bill, as Scion/Toyota isn't going to reimburse the dealer for their time/parts.

You're gonna have to get at least a teardown okayed somewhere above the dealer's head.

I'd look for a Scion owner's forum, join up, tell my story, and see if you can find someone that has had a successful outcome to a similar problem.

At this point I'm waiting to hear from the dealer to schedule yet another appointment with the same SE Toyota rep. This time I will be more forceful in getting what I want.

I actually did make a thread on the largest Scion community and found several others that complained of the same issue. However, no one else has bothered to do anything about it. No one seems to care as much as I do.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
This Scion tC reminds me of the BITOG member that bought a brand new Camry that was pinging and he traded it in within a year of buying it.

I forget his name.

I'm sure someone will remember his name.


That was me. The pinging isn't why I traded it, though. I think some cheap AAFES gas is the reason for the knock, as better fuels kept it at bay. It did seem to be more sensitive to fuel quality than anything else I owned though.

I will say that my dealership was pretty helpful about it, though (which is why I recommended Hendrick Toyota to the OP). I thought the engine was pinging so the tech had me ride while he drove, and let me operate the Toyota scanning software. Whenever I would hear what I thought was knock, I'd hit the "snapshot" button and it would record the previous 5 seconds of data or something like that. That was sent to Toyota's engineers and determined that the level of knock wasn't abnormal, and that the timing was retarded at an appropriate amount when knock was sensed by the knock sensor. And in fact, I would see knock activity on the scanner even when I didn't hear it, further confirming to myself that the noise I was hearing must not have really been spark knock.

It was a 2011 Camry, with the same 2AR-FE engine as this tC. I never had any of the cold start noises that this particular tC has developed.

 

[MrCritical]

Originally Posted By: VVTinme
Originally Posted By: MrCritical
Any dealer who attempts a repair on this car under warranty after the service rep said "it's normal" is most likely going to eat an expensive repair bill, as Scion/Toyota isn't going to reimburse the dealer for their time/parts.

You're gonna have to get at least a teardown okayed somewhere above the dealer's head.

I'd look for a Scion owner's forum, join up, tell my story, and see if you can find someone that has had a successful outcome to a similar problem.

At this point I'm waiting to hear from the dealer to schedule yet another appointment with the same SE Toyota rep. This time I will be more forceful in getting what I want.

I actually did make a thread on the largest Scion community and found several others that complained of the same issue. However, no one else has bothered to do anything about it. No one seems to care as much as I do.


The rep is going to tell them he doesn't want to meet with you again. Don't misunderstand, he's not deaf, but he's been told from his bosses that the noise is normal, and as far as they're concerned, that's the end of the conversation. His hands are tied.

My next move would be to give the dealer xx hours to make the appt with the rep, or contact the BBB. When you don't get any satisfaction, call them.

 

[91344George]

VVT:

Politely insist that you have a final meeting with the TMUSA rep and push nicely for a buy back.

You bought your car based on a expectation of higher quality that Toyota likes to market, and this vehicle has clearly not met your reasonable expectations, I would add that you chose the brand because you had the feeling of assurance that a Toyota product would pay much more attention to the little details compared to other brands, and that the reality has not turned out that way.

I bet they will buy this car back if you are persistent and clear in a businesslike manner, express your profound disappointment in this product.

 

[VVTinme]

Originally Posted By: 91344George
VVT:

Politely insist that you have a final meeting with the TMUSA rep and push nicely for a buy back.

You bought your car based on a expectation of higher quality that Toyota likes to market, and this vehicle has clearly not met your reasonable expectations, I would add that you chose the brand because you had the feeling of assurance that a Toyota product would pay much more attention to the little details compared to other brands, and that the reality has not turned out that way.

I bet they will buy this car back if you are persistent and clear in a businesslike manner, express your profound disappointment in this product.

Do you really think so? I was under the impression that in order to get a company to buy your car back you'd have to go to through arbitration/lemon law and that it was not an easy process. To be perfectly clear, I'm not getting my hopes up either way, but it would be nice if it were to happen and would certainly go a long way towards restoring (some) faith in the brand.

 

[Hokiefyd]

I would be very surprised if Toyota/Scion were to buy this car back for an issue that is classified as "normal" to them. Not that it wouldn't be the right thing to do, but with so much red tape these days, they'd have to create an awfully strong justification and I'm sure the move would never get approved.

Have you made any progress visiting your dealer and asking to cold start new tCs on the lot? Has your tC always made this noise or has it developed over time? Also, it may be worth it to ask the Toyota Corporate line why the TSB does not cover the engine in the tC. It's possible that the part replaced by the TSB was re-designed and incorporated as a rolling change. Do I recall correctly that the 2011 tC was introduced relatively "late" for the '11 model year? Could it be that the rolling parts change was implemented before the 2011 tC was being produced?

 

[VVTinme]

I have what *should* be good news, but I've been disappointed too many times by Toyota before and so I'm not counting my chickens just yet.

I received a phone call from Toyota today instructing me to set-up an appointment with the dealership I'm currently using. They are going to figure out when my engine was made to see if the fix in the TSB was applied before/during production or if it could apply to my car. They will also hopefully address my other issues which I documented with them over the phone and in writing. Thanks to everyone thus far for your encouragement and support!

 

[91344George]

Originally Posted By: VVTinme
I have what *should* be good news, but I've been disappointed too many times by Toyota before and so I'm not counting my chickens just yet.

I received a phone call from Toyota today instructing me to set-up an appointment with the dealership I'm currently using. They are going to figure out when my engine was made to see if the fix in the TSB was applied before/during production or if it could apply to my car. They will also hopefully address my other issues which I documented with them over the phone and in writing. Thanks to everyone thus far for your encouragement and support!


Nice to hear this, the important thing is to be firm, polite, businesslike and persistent. Very important to communicate that the purchase did not meet the expectations according to Toyota/Scion marketing metrics. The expectation they set was NOT met by a reasonable customer.

Don't bring the legal issues into this yet. If they cannot resolve the engine issues to your satisfaction keep pushing for them to either buy back the car or provide an exact replacement with you only paying admin fees. You might be surprised as long as you don't bring up arbitration or legal action.

 

[FL_Rob]

Walk in like you own the place and be persistent.

 

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: VVTinme
I have what *should* be good news, but I've been disappointed too many times by Toyota before and so I'm not counting my chickens just yet.

I received a phone call from Toyota today instructing me to set-up an appointment with the dealership I'm currently using. They are going to figure out when my engine was made to see if the fix in the TSB was applied before/during production or if it could apply to my car. They will also hopefully address my other issues which I documented with them over the phone and in writing. Thanks to everyone thus far for your encouragement and support!


Let us know what TSB it was. I was thinking T-SB-0146-10 in my earlier reply

 

[VVTinme]

Originally Posted By: 91344George
Originally Posted By: VVTinme
I have what *should* be good news, but I've been disappointed too many times by Toyota before and so I'm not counting my chickens just yet.

I received a phone call from Toyota today instructing me to set-up an appointment with the dealership I'm currently using. They are going to figure out when my engine was made to see if the fix in the TSB was applied before/during production or if it could apply to my car. They will also hopefully address my other issues which I documented with them over the phone and in writing. Thanks to everyone thus far for your encouragement and support!


Nice to hear this, the important thing is to be firm, polite, businesslike and persistent. Very important to communicate that the purchase did not meet the expectations according to Toyota/Scion marketing metrics. The expectation they set was NOT met by a reasonable customer.

Don't bring the legal issues into this yet. If they cannot resolve the engine issues to your satisfaction keep pushing for them to either buy back the car or provide an exact replacement with you only paying admin fees. You might be surprised as long as you don't bring up arbitration or legal action.

I'll keep your words in mind. I'm giving them this last chance to fix the car; I think it's only reasonable to do so if they're actually willing to try. If they can't though you can bet on it that I'll push the issue of a buyback.

LeakySeals: That's the one.

 

[MrCritical]

Toyota should have paperwork in hand of what engine they installed in your car as far as the build date. Sounds like a run around.

Be sure your car is at the dealership the day BEFORE the arranged meeting. You lock it up and take the keys, so you know it will be cold started the day of the appointment.

A buy-back is not giving you the purchase price of the car. It's less depreciating, mileage, reconditioning, ect. So don't go in expecting a windfall.

 

[91344George]

Originally Posted By: MrCritical


A buy-back is not giving you the purchase price of the car. It's less depreciating, mileage, reconditioning, ect. So don't go in expecting a windfall.


I doubt the OP is looking for a "windfall" all he wanted was a new car that behaved like a new car, especially a new Scion should.

I also mentioned that he could simply have TMUSA replace his car with a brand new identical unit and only pay the admin fees. That is what I would choose since I believe that VVTs issues are the rare item and the replacement would be perfect.
This way all he would have to do is pay for administrative fees like title, tags, and the like.

 

[Merkava_4]

Sounds like Toyota is becoming the Ford of the early 1980's.

 

[MrCritical]

Originally Posted By: 91344George
Originally Posted By: MrCritical


A buy-back is not giving you the purchase price of the car. It's less depreciating, mileage, reconditioning, ect. So don't go in expecting a windfall.


I doubt the OP is looking for a "windfall" all he wanted was a new car that behaved like a new car, especially a new Scion should.

I also mentioned that he could simply have TMUSA replace his car with a brand new identical unit and only pay the admin fees. That is what I would choose since I believe that VVTs issues are the rare item and the replacement would be perfect.
This way all he would have to do is pay for administrative fees like title, tags, and the like.


Is the "identical unit" still being produced?
Besides, they are going to bring up the use he's gotten out of the car he has. At which point he needs to bring up the time and odometer mileage he first complained about the problem.

 

[VVTinme]

Originally Posted By: MrCritical

Is the "identical unit" still being produced?
Besides, they are going to bring up the use he's gotten out of the car he has. At which point he needs to bring up the time and odometer mileage he first complained about the problem.

Yes, it is. The 2012 tC is the same as the 2011 plus built-in bluetooth handsfree.

Anyway, at least for now, it doesn't look like I'll need to worry about that. I spoke in length with a Toyota representative who has passed on my information to engineers who agree that my car may suffer from the issue described in the TSB. I'm bringing the car in on monday to have a representative from Southeast Toyota take another look at the car, and also have some of the car's other issues (the door panel included) addressed on the dealer level. The video I made and posted here was shown to engineers as evidence of my car's issue. The representative was apologetic although I mentioned to him that really I'd rather hear that from someone who bears some actual responsibility for what's happened (or should I say not happened) thus far.

 

[91344George]

VVT:

If TMUSA can rectify the issue you'd be happy with that. I'd say that in their opinion you are a reasonable customer and they are obligated to make their product measure up to standards. They will try and repair but in the event that it is not possible the replacement vehicle is the best choice....regarding use of the current vehicle ...I believe that VVT started complaining about this almost immediately not to mention that the inconvience to deal with it and a below par unit negates that argument. DO NOT LET THEM SNOW YOU WITH THAT ANGLE. If it cannot be repaired push, push, and push some more ..POLITELY for a NEW replacement, offer to only pay administrative fees. Nothing else. You shouldn't have to even justify yourself, TMUSA sold you a defective or subpar product to begin with. Not your fault.....THEIR responsibility.

When one buys a new Scion they should expect a good product, not a sub par product.

 

[VVTinme]

91344George:

I do consider myself to be a reasonable person, and yes, you are correct in that I started complaining very soon after I bought the car. It took some time to actually be able to meet with an SE Toyota rep, which of course ended up being a big waste of time. Don't worry, I absolutely will heed your advice if they cannot or will not fix my car. I will be polite although I am simultaneously learning how to be strong in expressing my needs and feelings with respect to the car and its performance.

In all honesty though, I believe that if that worst-case were to be realized, and I got to the point where I was requesting a replacement car or compensation, I would need to go through arbitration. I am absolutely willing to do so although I'd rather avoid the trouble, and the legal fees if god forbid I lost such a bid. At this point I'll continue to take it one step at a time and hope that Toyota first acknowledges the engine issue (in writing!) and then repairs it. That alone would set a precedent for future repairs if necessary, and start the clock for the lemon law statute.

 

[91344George]

VVT:

While arbitration is common, if the customer is good about working with the manufacturer and goes through all the steps to repair the issue and you are reasonable it isn't UNcommon for the manufacturer to simply step up to the plate and do a replacement with NO arbitration at all. It happens more often than you'd think.

Agreed about needing to balance civility and politeness with being firm...you don't WANT to be TOO nice, just businesslike.

Your thread really struck a nerve with me because I have experienced many unpleasant situations with many different businesses, I don't think I invite problems but it seems like I have more than my fair share of issues with businesses even though I always try to work with them when there are problems..and no I am not a pushover nor obnoxious either.

I had my muffler hanger on my VW repaired at a shop that was recommended by a trusted indy service shop that I have gone to for a decade.

The muffler guy charged me 30 bucks to repair the center muffler hanger ......I have been back to him FOUR times within 20 months to have him redo because it was failing each time granted he didn't charge me those other three times BUT the annoyance of going out of my way to visit his place every 4-6 months for my "muffler adjustment" is exasperating to say the least!.

This time around he had the nerve to say he wanted another 30 bucks to "rework" his original job...I said NO way you never completed the job correctly the first time around maybe you forgot how many times I've been here!

If it wasn't so annoying it would be funny.