Engine rattle at startup - Toyota REFUSES to fix
- Thread starter VVTinme
- Start date
- Status
I agree you guys. The "rattling noise" certainly does not sound normal and indicates to me that something is not exactly the way it should be. 
The most important question for me is, is that thing that is making the noise going to significantly impact the performance/life of the engine? I get the impression from reading the posts that some believe it won't and have just decided to let it go. Lotus' are very quirky cars that have lots of squeaks and rattles......to a lot of Lotus owners this is probably just another "rattle" Also, one guy on the Lotus forum recently mentioned that he has had the rattle for three years and has not complained of any adverse affects over that period.
I think I'm more like the other folks however and am definitely interested in finding out whether you get the issues resolved to your satisfaction VVTinme. It's definitely not a pretty (or "normal") sound.
The most important question for me is, is that thing that is making the noise going to significantly impact the performance/life of the engine? I get the impression from reading the posts that some believe it won't and have just decided to let it go. Lotus' are very quirky cars that have lots of squeaks and rattles......to a lot of Lotus owners this is probably just another "rattle"
Also, one guy on the Lotus forum recently mentioned that he has had the rattle for three years and has not complained of any adverse affects over that period.I think I'm more like the other folks however and am definitely interested in finding out whether you get the issues resolved to your satisfaction VVTinme.
It's definitely not a pretty (or "normal") sound. We have a 2009 RAV4 that is making the noise as well. It is covered by the TSB. The dealer said they will fix it, if we want, but that it just makes a noise upon start up as the oil pressure builds. They claim it has no effect on long term durability. So right now I am trying to decide whether to have the work done or not before the powertrain warranty expires, or just leave it alone. They said the choice is up to me, and honestly, I am leaning toward leaving it as is.
Originally Posted By: JMHC
We have a 2009 RAV4 that is making the noise as well. It is covered by the TSB. The dealer said they will fix it, if we want, but that it just makes a noise upon start up as the oil pressure builds. They claim it has no effect on long term durability. So right now I am trying to decide whether to have the work done or not before the powertrain warranty expires, or just leave it alone. They said the choice is up to me, and honestly, I am leaning toward leaving it as is.
I would definitely let them fix it. You don't know if the problem will get worse later on. The TSB clearly shows that an updated part was used on future models so why not have that installed on yours?
We have a 2009 RAV4 that is making the noise as well. It is covered by the TSB. The dealer said they will fix it, if we want, but that it just makes a noise upon start up as the oil pressure builds. They claim it has no effect on long term durability. So right now I am trying to decide whether to have the work done or not before the powertrain warranty expires, or just leave it alone. They said the choice is up to me, and honestly, I am leaning toward leaving it as is.
I would definitely let them fix it. You don't know if the problem will get worse later on. The TSB clearly shows that an updated part was used on future models so why not have that installed on yours?
Originally Posted By: TX_ELISE
I agree you guys. The "rattling noise" certainly does not sound normal and indicates to me that something is not exactly the way it should be.
The most important question for me is, is that thing that is making the noise going to significantly impact the performance/life of the engine? I get the impression from reading the posts that some believe it won't and have just decided to let it go. Lotus' are very quirky cars that have lots of squeaks and rattles......to a lot of Lotus owners this is probably just another "rattle" Also, one guy on the Lotus forum recently mentioned that he has had the rattle for three years and has not complained of any adverse affects over that period.
I think I'm more like the other folks however and am definitely interested in finding out whether you get the issues resolved to your satisfaction VVTinme. It's definitely not a pretty (or "normal") sound.
Why would you not have it fixed? It'll be free under the warranty, won't it?
I agree you guys. The "rattling noise" certainly does not sound normal and indicates to me that something is not exactly the way it should be.
The most important question for me is, is that thing that is making the noise going to significantly impact the performance/life of the engine? I get the impression from reading the posts that some believe it won't and have just decided to let it go. Lotus' are very quirky cars that have lots of squeaks and rattles......to a lot of Lotus owners this is probably just another "rattle"
Also, one guy on the Lotus forum recently mentioned that he has had the rattle for three years and has not complained of any adverse affects over that period.I think I'm more like the other folks however and am definitely interested in finding out whether you get the issues resolved to your satisfaction VVTinme.
It's definitely not a pretty (or "normal") sound. Why would you not have it fixed? It'll be free under the warranty, won't it?
I'm not understanding why a metal on metal rattle caused by lack of lubrication will not affect long term reliability. It would seem to go against what I've always been taught about component wear.
Enlighten me, please.
Enlighten me, please.
This shows the Toyota VVT-i sprockets that get replaced by the TSB.
After sitting a long time, there is no oil in the vanes and for about 1 second on start up, there is a rattle. I assume it is that mechanism rattling back and forth until the oil pressure comes up in the sprocket to dampen out the motion. Warm starts do no experience this phenomenon. The service manager told me that the rattle is only a noise, and the rattling of the mechanism will not cause any damage. It seems like fairly large, flat metal surfaces that make contact for the 1 second duration. The new design apparently has different clearances to eliminate the noise. As an engineer, we do want to avoid "chatter" since in valves and other devices the metal "hammering" action can cause damage over time. To me, a grind or rattle sounds pretty nasty and my gut says to fix. At the same time, I don't trust most mechanics to be able to take apart half my engine and reassemble it properly. I feel an bad job on this could cause more problems than the rattle on a car we intend to keep for a very long time.
After sitting a long time, there is no oil in the vanes and for about 1 second on start up, there is a rattle. I assume it is that mechanism rattling back and forth until the oil pressure comes up in the sprocket to dampen out the motion. Warm starts do no experience this phenomenon. The service manager told me that the rattle is only a noise, and the rattling of the mechanism will not cause any damage. It seems like fairly large, flat metal surfaces that make contact for the 1 second duration. The new design apparently has different clearances to eliminate the noise. As an engineer, we do want to avoid "chatter" since in valves and other devices the metal "hammering" action can cause damage over time. To me, a grind or rattle sounds pretty nasty and my gut says to fix. At the same time, I don't trust most mechanics to be able to take apart half my engine and reassemble it properly. I feel an bad job on this could cause more problems than the rattle on a car we intend to keep for a very long time.
Last edited by a moderator:
Originally Posted By: MrCritical
I'm not understanding why a metal on metal rattle caused by lack of lubrication will not affect long term reliability. It would seem to go against what I've always been taught about component wear.
Enlighten me, please.
Couldn't the same be said about piston slap? The skirts of cold pistons crash against the cylinder walls at hundreds/thousands of cycles per minute in certain engine designs. Intuitively, one would say that this is a much more significant event than a cam phaser noise that occurs for a half second or second at engine start-up.
Some engines with hydraulic lifters also experience lifter clatter either intermittently or consistently on cold starts due to lifter bleed-down.
Engines with piston slap and/or lifter bleed-down seem to run hundreds of thousands of miles just fine. I'd assume the same of a situation where the cam phaser makes some noise on startup. I'm not making excuses for Toyota in not fixing the problem, but the majority of evidence out there does seem to go along with the notion that this will not affect durability.
I'm not understanding why a metal on metal rattle caused by lack of lubrication will not affect long term reliability. It would seem to go against what I've always been taught about component wear.
Enlighten me, please.
Couldn't the same be said about piston slap? The skirts of cold pistons crash against the cylinder walls at hundreds/thousands of cycles per minute in certain engine designs. Intuitively, one would say that this is a much more significant event than a cam phaser noise that occurs for a half second or second at engine start-up.
Some engines with hydraulic lifters also experience lifter clatter either intermittently or consistently on cold starts due to lifter bleed-down.
Engines with piston slap and/or lifter bleed-down seem to run hundreds of thousands of miles just fine. I'd assume the same of a situation where the cam phaser makes some noise on startup. I'm not making excuses for Toyota in not fixing the problem, but the majority of evidence out there does seem to go along with the notion that this will not affect durability.
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Couldn't the same be said about piston slap? The skirts of cold pistons crash against the cylinder walls at hundreds/thousands of cycles per minute in certain engine designs. Intuitively, one would say that this is a much more significant event than a cam phaser noise that occurs for a half second or second at engine start-up.
Some engines with hydraulic lifters also experience lifter clatter either intermittently or consistently on cold starts due to lifter bleed-down.
Engines with piston slap and/or lifter bleed-down seem to run hundreds of thousands of miles just fine. I'd assume the same of a situation where the cam phaser makes some noise on startup. I'm not making excuses for Toyota in not fixing the problem, but the majority of evidence out there does seem to go along with the notion that this will not affect durability.
That's a good analogy.
Couldn't the same be said about piston slap? The skirts of cold pistons crash against the cylinder walls at hundreds/thousands of cycles per minute in certain engine designs. Intuitively, one would say that this is a much more significant event than a cam phaser noise that occurs for a half second or second at engine start-up.
Some engines with hydraulic lifters also experience lifter clatter either intermittently or consistently on cold starts due to lifter bleed-down.
Engines with piston slap and/or lifter bleed-down seem to run hundreds of thousands of miles just fine. I'd assume the same of a situation where the cam phaser makes some noise on startup. I'm not making excuses for Toyota in not fixing the problem, but the majority of evidence out there does seem to go along with the notion that this will not affect durability.
That's a good analogy.
JMHCI don't trust most mechanics to be able to take apart half my engine and reassemble it properly. I feel an bad job on this could cause more problems than the rattle on a car we intend to keep for a very long time. [/quote said:
I agree. I wouldn't let them touch it if possible.
Originally Posted By: VVTinme
It looks like next week I'll be meeting with an actual engineer (!) to go over my car. I received a phone call today to convey my availability for next week.
It would be great for the engineer to explain exactly what causes the noise, and if the noise would cause damage over time or is just annoying. I never trust dealers, and since they told me the noise would not cause damage, confirmation from and engineer for all of us having this problem would be great.
It looks like next week I'll be meeting with an actual engineer (!) to go over my car. I received a phone call today to convey my availability for next week.
It would be great for the engineer to explain exactly what causes the noise, and if the noise would cause damage over time or is just annoying. I never trust dealers, and since they told me the noise would not cause damage, confirmation from and engineer for all of us having this problem would be great.
Originally Posted By: JMHC
Originally Posted By: VVTinme
It looks like next week I'll be meeting with an actual engineer (!) to go over my car. I received a phone call today to convey my availability for next week.
It would be great for the engineer to explain exactly what causes the noise, and if the noise would cause damage over time or is just annoying. I never trust dealers, and since they told me the noise would not cause damage, confirmation from and engineer for all of us having this problem would be great.
I'll see what I can do.
Originally Posted By: VVTinme
It looks like next week I'll be meeting with an actual engineer (!) to go over my car. I received a phone call today to convey my availability for next week.
It would be great for the engineer to explain exactly what causes the noise, and if the noise would cause damage over time or is just annoying. I never trust dealers, and since they told me the noise would not cause damage, confirmation from and engineer for all of us having this problem would be great.
I'll see what I can do.
Originally Posted By: VVTinme
It looks like next week I'll be meeting with an actual engineer (!) to go over my car. I received a phone call today to convey my availability for next week.
Just remember who the engineer works for. I had good luck with one from Honda, I wish you well.
Smoky
It looks like next week I'll be meeting with an actual engineer (!) to go over my car. I received a phone call today to convey my availability for next week.
Just remember who the engineer works for. I had good luck with one from Honda, I wish you well.
Smoky
Originally Posted By: JMHC
Originally Posted By: VVTinme
It looks like next week I'll be meeting with an actual engineer (!) to go over my car. I received a phone call today to convey my availability for next week.
It would be great for the engineer to explain exactly what causes the noise, and if the noise would cause damage over time or is just annoying. I never trust dealers, and since they told me the noise would not cause damage, confirmation from and engineer for all of us having this problem would be great.
I don't think the rattle affects reliability but even if it has some effect on long term reliability, I wouldn't expect the engineer to volunteer that info. They work for the company and can be defensive about engineering mistakes.
Originally Posted By: VVTinme
It looks like next week I'll be meeting with an actual engineer (!) to go over my car. I received a phone call today to convey my availability for next week.
It would be great for the engineer to explain exactly what causes the noise, and if the noise would cause damage over time or is just annoying. I never trust dealers, and since they told me the noise would not cause damage, confirmation from and engineer for all of us having this problem would be great.
I don't think the rattle affects reliability but even if it has some effect on long term reliability, I wouldn't expect the engineer to volunteer that info. They work for the company and can be defensive about engineering mistakes.
Yeah, I'm on the side of "leaving it alone" at this point. I agree with other folks that have recently commented regarding not wanting to risk someone getting that deep into their engine. Also, even though our Lotus' have the Toyota 2ZZ engine, there is no TSB for the Lotus.
Overall, on the "LotusTalk" forum I found 51 unique individuals that made note of this issue and have not found one that has had anything replaced - I assume because there in no Lotus TSB. Lotus service techs have also chimed-in and said it is just "noise" and not to worry (I of course understand they do not have an unbiased view).
Also, complaints of this issue span all the way back to late 2005 on the LotusTalk forum. One guy mentioned that he has had the "rattle" for three years with no adverse effects that he is aware of.
I wish mine didn't make that "rattle" noise but....
Can't wait to hear what the engineer says!
Overall, on the "LotusTalk" forum I found 51 unique individuals that made note of this issue and have not found one that has had anything replaced - I assume because there in no Lotus TSB. Lotus service techs have also chimed-in and said it is just "noise" and not to worry (I of course understand they do not have an unbiased view)
.Also, complaints of this issue span all the way back to late 2005 on the LotusTalk forum. One guy mentioned that he has had the "rattle" for three years with no adverse effects that he is aware of.
I wish mine didn't make that "rattle" noise but....
Can't wait to hear what the engineer says!
I never actually got to meet with the engineer since I was told that it was against company policy for engineers to speak with customers, although he supposedly did in fact look at the car. The engineer ended up being completely useless. He denied there was anything wrong, and did not replace a single part. The service manager told me that he asked whether he could replace the VVTI cam gears, was told (to paraphrase) that he could if he wanted to, that Toyota did not care either way, and after he did so, the engine has not rattled once. The car still starts roughly among other issues and I'm hopeful that I can get them resolved through the dealer. I'm very disappointed in Toyota and will probably look elsewhere in the future. If only I had leased this car I wouldn't have to worry about any of this.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: VVTinme
I never actually got to meet with the engineer since I was told that it was against company policy for engineers to speak with customers, although he supposedly did in fact look at the car. The engineer ended up being completely useless. He denied there was anything wrong, and did not replace a single part. The service manager told me that he asked whether he could replace the VVTI cam gears, was told (to paraphrase) that he could if he wanted to, that Toyota did not care either way, and after he did so, the engine has not rattled once. The car still starts roughly among other issues and I'm hopeful that I can get them resolved through the dealer. I'm very disappointed in Toyota and will probably look elsewhere in the future. If only I had leased this car I wouldn't have to worry about any of this.
@VVTinme:
Who told you that it was policy that "engineers" couldn't speak to customers? That is nonsense!
Wow I'm not sure we have the whole story but there is definitely something strange going on with your experience, it really seems usual the way the manufacturer is interacting with you. It seems to me like the dealer is claiming to be acting on behalf of TMUSA, which it appears they are not doing it correctly.
Again, have you written a snail mail, return receipt requested to the company CEO (TMUSA) and explained what has been happening?
I never actually got to meet with the engineer since I was told that it was against company policy for engineers to speak with customers, although he supposedly did in fact look at the car. The engineer ended up being completely useless. He denied there was anything wrong, and did not replace a single part. The service manager told me that he asked whether he could replace the VVTI cam gears, was told (to paraphrase) that he could if he wanted to, that Toyota did not care either way, and after he did so, the engine has not rattled once. The car still starts roughly among other issues and I'm hopeful that I can get them resolved through the dealer. I'm very disappointed in Toyota and will probably look elsewhere in the future. If only I had leased this car I wouldn't have to worry about any of this.
@VVTinme:
Who told you that it was policy that "engineers" couldn't speak to customers? That is nonsense!
Wow I'm not sure we have the whole story but there is definitely something strange going on with your experience, it really seems usual the way the manufacturer is interacting with you. It seems to me like the dealer is claiming to be acting on behalf of TMUSA, which it appears they are not doing it correctly.
Again, have you written a snail mail, return receipt requested to the company CEO (TMUSA) and explained what has been happening?
Last edited:
- Status
