Based partly on information I've collected from this forum, I've completed the first draft of my engine oil article for the ACCCC web site.
Engine Oil
Any advice you might have to offer would be greatly appreciated.
Engine Oil Article Review
- Thread starter fraso
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The following photo gives a good illustration of the differences between oils of various viscosities. All have been cooled to a low temperature and and they were all tipped at the same time.
I don't know. I borrowed the photo from the Corvair oil article and that article doesn't specify the temperature. I've tried to contact Widman already but have not yet had any success. (The photo is used as a link to his article.)
It's a cool picture that's for sure.
I'm not sure why you came to a conclusion that 0w-30 was the best choice. Especially since you don't say what the exact application is. If it were me, I'd throw a paragraph about the ZDDP content of oils, and how it's lower in SM oils which may be of interest to flat tappet engine users.
Why 0w-30 over a more available 5w-30 oil? In my state, you can't even drive your collector car in the winter (per license plate restrictions) not that anyone would anyways. So I don't see what the advantage is.
If I were issuing a very wide piece of advice to owners of cars from 1900 to 1980, it would probably be to use a high zddp/moly oil like Rotella or Valvoline Racing. It seems like cold pour point was on the top of your list, which is more a concern for a daily driver than a vehicle used for leisure.
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The reason for recommending 0W-30 is because most older engines call for an SAE 30 weight oil (9.3 - 12.5 cSt @ 100°C) in temperatures above 32°F. Esso XD-3 Extra 0W-30's viscosity (VI=176) is 12.2 cSt while PC Duron Synthetic is 11.5 cSt (VI=175) at 100°C. 0W-30 will flow more quickly through a cold engine and will reach 12.5 cSt at a lower temperature.
I believe most collector car owners are less sensitive to the price of engine oil. Although more expensive oils are available, I thought the most expensive oil found at, say, Wal-Mart would be the upper price limit that most collector car owner would likely be willing to pay. Even though 5W-30 is more available in stores, I now have accounts with Esso and PetroCanada so any of their oils are readily available to club members.
Actually, I thought I did mention the ZDDP content of oils and how it's lower in SM oils. That's why I was recommending the HDEOs.
Originally Posted By: bepperb
If I were issuing a very wide piece of advice to owners of cars from 1900 to 1980, it would probably be to use a high zddp/moly oil like Rotella or Valvoline Racing.
Originally Posted By: bepperb
It seems like cold pour point was on the top of your list, which is more a concern for a daily driver than a vehicle used for leisure.
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"concerned with the high VI of these oils with their minimal use of VIIs"
That doesn't make any sense. Obviously a 0w-30 will contain more VII's than the same oil in a 10w-30. So if you're concered with minimizing their use, why wouldn't you choose the latter, or better yet a straight 30?
It seems like you wrote the article after you decided what product you thought would work best. If these cars are designed to use a straight 30 oil, what has changed that a 0w-30 is now such an obvious choice that a several page article would come to the conclusion that it's the only recommendation? I'm all for technological advancements finding their way into older applications, but I'm completely unconvinced that a 0w-30 is any better than Dino 5/10w-30 a classic car that isn't started in below-freezing weather.
"Even though 5W-30 is more available in stores, I now have accounts with Esso and PetroCanada..."
Nice, ok, it makes sense now...
Esso's XD-3 Extra 0W-30 and 0W-40 are both PAO CJ-4/SM synthetics. PetroCanada's Duron 0W-30 is a Group III CI-4/SJ synthetic. Conventional 10W-30 Duron-E CJ-4/SM and 10W-30 XD-3 Extra CJ-4/SM are also available.
My understanding is that Group III and Group IV synthetics contain a minimum of VIIs. Is this isn't true, I would be pleased to revise my article. If it is true, do you have anything against Esso and PetroCanada lubricants?
As I said before, I was looking for a low viscosity (30 weight) HDEO for the older engines and I don't believe that I am suggesting anything contrary to Widman or Haas. Are there any other low viscosity HDEOs you would recommend instead?
As for having accounts with Esso and PetroCanada, can you suggest a better way of obtaining lubricants that are not normally stocked at Wal-mart or Canadian Tire?
Originally Posted By: fraso
My understanding is that Group III and Group IV synthetics contain a minimum of VIIs. Is this isn't true, I would be pleased to revise my article. If it is true, do you have anything against Esso and PetroCanada lubricants?
AMSoil 5W-30 and 10W-30 are also good alternatives, especially since they are still available as CI-4+/SL. I'll include that in my next revision. It's a bit more expensive than the XD-3 Extra with the US$ costing C$1.145 today.
"can you suggest a better way of obtaining lubricants that are not normally stocked at Wal-mart or Canadian Tire"
No. My point the entire time is that there are aisles of oils that will work fine in that application at WalMart and Canadian Tire and auto stores everywhere. How could a car designed for non-detergent straight 30 oil, which has been running fine for fifty years, suddenly require a 8 dollar a quart oil that can only be mail ordered? What has changed?
It's insane! What are your readers gaining by not using 5w-30 Pennzoil yellow bottle they could buy at a gas station?
We're talking about classic cars, which are generally seldom driven and mostly in nice weather. The benifits to a synthetic oil such as cold weather starting and a longer OCI aren't relevant to the demograpic you're writing to. Not that it would even matter because you don't point them out in your article anyway.
The benifits of a 0w-x are even more suspect in this application. Are classic car owners interested in fuel economy during short trips when the engine doesn't get up to full temp? Are they really having starting problems in a car designed for straight 30? Are you overinflating the importance of getting an oil to operating temp viscosity to try to sell oil?
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You're absolutely right. These vehicles can run just fine with most oils available off the shelf from the big chains. All I was suggesting that they could benefit from a synthetic HDEO that doesn't cost that much more than Pennzoil YB. I'm not sure that it is true to say that cars designed for non-detergent SAE 30 have been running fine for 50 years. Only the pre-1930 vehicles were designed for non-detergent oils. Additives were developed since then to combat sludging and wear problems and my feeling is that OEMs of that time would have used modern oils had they been available.
Taking 0W-30 XD-3 Extra as an example, I was going to make this available to ACCCC members at C$123.90 per 4 x 4L case (C$140.00 including taxes). This works out to C$7.33/quart or ~US$6.40/quart. A case of 0W-30 Duron Synthetic would cost the equivalent of C$6.28/quart or ~US$5.49/quart. 10W-30 Pennzoil YB costs C$4.99/L (plus environmental levy & tax) at Canadian Tire.
I think it's a bit unfair to suggest that I am doing this purely for self-interest. If I add ~$2 to the price of case to cover my costs, do you really think I'm going to get rich providing this service to club members? If anyone wanted to buy some, they would just have to give me a call and I would bring them a case at our next club meeting. No mail order involved.
Since both 0W-30 oils are SM-rated, they can also be used modern daily drivers and air-cooled engines. I am planning to use 0W-30 XD-3 Extra in all my engines (daily drivers, classic cars, lawn mower, tractor) as I see other Canadians on this board have already done.
Originally Posted By: bepperb
We're talking about classic cars, which are generally seldom driven and mostly in nice weather. The benifits to a synthetic oil such as cold weather starting and a longer OCI aren't relevant to the demograpic you're writing to. Not that it would even matter because you don't point them out in your article anyway.
Originally Posted By: bepperb
The benifits of a 0w-x are even more suspect in this application. Are classic car owners interested in fuel economy during short trips when the engine doesn't get up to full temp? Are they really having starting problems in a car designed for straight 30? Are you overinflating the importance of getting an oil to operating temp viscosity to try to sell oil?
Based on input from firemachine69 and bepperb, I have revised the Engine Oil article. Thanks for your advice.
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