Engine design VS Lubrication

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Originally Posted By: boraticus
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
You may not like it, but it exists.

Almost any mass produced item is designed to last a specific amount of time. Period.

If we didn't clamor for 'new and improved' so much they might change. We did it to ourselves!


Sad but true.

Personally, I can do without new and improved. Give me durable, long lasting products that are easy/inexpensive to operate and service. I'll gladly pay a premium for it.


Take all the govt. regulations out of the equation and that would be alot easier to do.
 
Originally Posted By: ZGRider
Well, if you want things that last forever, then I guess there is nothing physical in this universe, I can interest you in. Even matter will eventually turn into energy (unusable energy) sooner or later.

All products are designed for a set lifetime, some longer, some shorter. Every product becomes worn-out and obsolete. Planned obsolescence is when the new products are specifically designed to render the older models unusable. For instance, if a manufacturer changes the new product so the old product no longer works.

Take computers for example, what if new software didn't work on the older computers? And say that the software engineers purposely designed the new software not to work on the older computers -- then that would be planned obsolescence. The older computer would be rendered useless.

In motor vehicles, that would be very hard to do. I can still drive a Model T on the public roadways if I choose. What you all are talking about is that the vehicles are poorly designed and they don't last as long as you would like. Different thing entirely. They weren't purposely designed to render the older models unusable.

As long as I can get gasoline, oil and tires, I can drive a vehicle as long as it will last. It never becomes unusable by a newer model.

We (consumers) just don't like the thought of the Joneses driving a newer (or better) vehicle than we drive -- that is a personally flaw, not planned obsolescence.


Your theory is somewhat flawed.

Anything can be kept running indefinitely provided the resources are there to support it and there is a willingness to supply/pay for said resources.

Planned obsolescence includes building a product designed to expire with a predetermined useful life expectancy.

Rather than building products that last ten to fifteen year or more, (a common practice twenty to thirty years ago) they're now designed to wear out faster and cost more to keep operating beyond a certain point. Part of the obsolescence plan is to make buying parts and repair work prohibitively expensive, thus forcing the consumer to buy new.

If you do not believe that planned obsolescence is an integral part of our manufacturing sector's philosophy, you have much more faith in them than I do. That's for sure.
 
Originally Posted By: boraticus

If you do not believe that planned obsolescence is an integral part of our manufacturing sector's philosophy, you have much more faith in them than I do. That's for sure.


Well, I'd rather buy a auto or motorcycle made here than in say...Russia? or maybe India? I currently own 4 American-made cars or trucks and I haven't been unhappy with any of them. In the last 10 years, I have probably owned at least 10 American made vehicles, same story. Not saying they were perfect, but inexpensive to buy and keep, reliable, and decent running.

If they were built by some corporate "planned obsolescence" philosophy, all I can say is: Keep it up boys !

I see many Ford, Chevy, and Dodge pickup trucks on my roads that are well over 10 years old and seem to be good, serviceable vehicles that are giving their owners good value.
 
nz's improvements to the world...


sir edmund hillary
kate shepard
sir ernest rutherford
peter jackson
pm david lange
richard pearse
bruce mclaren
charles upham
john britten
bill hamilton
jean batten
william pickering
katherine mansfield
nancy wake
keith park
colin murdoch


AND LETS NOT FORGET BURT MUNRO

p.s. and pavlova

not bad for a country with 1/100th the population of usa
 
Originally Posted By: ZGRider
Originally Posted By: boraticus

If you do not believe that planned obsolescence is an integral part of our manufacturing sector's philosophy, you have much more faith in them than I do. That's for sure.


Well, I'd rather buy a auto or motorcycle made here than in say...Russia? or maybe India? I currently own 4 American-made cars or trucks and I haven't been unhappy with any of them. In the last 10 years, I have probably owned at least 10 American made vehicles, same story. Not saying they were perfect, but inexpensive to buy and keep, reliable, and decent running.

If they were built by some corporate "planned obsolescence" philosophy, all I can say is: Keep it up boys !

I see many Ford, Chevy, and Dodge pickup trucks on my roads that are well over 10 years old and seem to be good, serviceable vehicles that are giving their owners good value.


If they're that good, why so many vehicles?

In over forty years of vehicle ownership/operation, I've owned four. I had two Ford pick ups for ten years each which cost me at the very least, $500.00/yr. in repairs for every year of ownership. Both had less than 80K miles on them when I dumped them. Terrible vehicles. I owned a used Toyota tercel for five years then bought a new 1996 Toyota T-100 which I still own and is now 14 years old. I have not spent one red cent on repairs on the T-100. Everything is original except the tires, battery and windshield wipers. My wife has owned three Toyotas in the same period of time and spent approx. $800.00 in thirty years. The last car she traded in (1992 Camry) is still on the road and running well.

My T-100 gets pounded up and down at least 1500 miles of rough dirt roads every year as well as several thousand miles of highway/city driving. It frequently hauls 700 lb. ATVs, building materials, firewood, and other heavy loads. So, it's certainly not pampered.

Speaking of gravel roads, my in-laws were driving their Oldsmobile Omega the sixty miles home from our camp once and had to finish the last forty miles with their dash board on their laps because the washboard road vibrated it loose. When the father-in-law went to put the dash back on, he was really disappointed to see that the dash was made out of some kind of compressed cardboard and the fasteners had chewed through it! Nice.....

I plan to get twenty or more years out of my T-100. Twice the life of the Fords I owned.

That, my friend is durable quality. Do you see the difference?

By the way, it would appear that a few years back, Ford saw the writing on the wall and have made strides to improve quality. They're catching up to the Asians and, who knows? They might have as good a product as the Japanese very soon if they don't already. I'll never know for sure. It's very unlikely that I'll ever buy another domestic vehicle due to my bad experiences with them.
 
I've got a 1997 F350 Ford and haven't spent $0.10 on it other than fuel, oil, tires and other things like a couple batteries. No repairs, no breakdowns, so not all are bad. I can see a lot of good points in the previous posts for sure though. Talk about your repair costs though, the Japanese cars are genious is this concept of making rediculously espensive repair costs. Compare price of any consumable, a set of shocks for example, you'll find a set of shocks for a Toyota Tundra is 2 or 3 times more $ than for a Ford F350 of the same year. Maybe the Toyota is 2 or 3 times better for all I know, but still interesting. Aftermarket is always there for shocks, other things dealer only, you'll pay a hefty price for Japanese parts just like we are used to on motorcycles, those of us on Japanese at least.
 
Originally Posted By: RonH
I've got a 1997 F350 Ford and haven't spent $0.10 on it other than fuel, oil, tires and other things like a couple batteries. No repairs, no breakdowns, so not all are bad. I can see a lot of good points in the previous posts for sure though. Talk about your repair costs though, the Japanese cars are genious is this concept of making rediculously espensive repair costs. Compare price of any consumable, a set of shocks for example, you'll find a set of shocks for a Toyota Tundra is 2 or 3 times more $ than for a Ford F350 of the same year. Maybe the Toyota is 2 or 3 times better for all I know, but still interesting. Aftermarket is always there for shocks, other things dealer only, you'll pay a hefty price for Japanese parts just like we are used to on motorcycles, those of us on Japanese at least.


Good point about the parts but, when my wife brought her '92 Camry in for a new timing belt and pulleys (preventative maintenance), the repair costs were no worse than a domestic vehicle.

However, the work was not done at a Toyota dealership. We never take our vehicles there. That's where the gouging occurs. We use a local NAPA dealer and his shop rate for the procedure on the Toyota was very close to equivalent work on a domestic. So, in one respect, you're right. Stay away from the Toyota dealership (all dealerships for that matter) and big bucks can be saved.

I'm not saying that every domestic vehicle is bad. However, the ones I had were. Considering the state of the domestic auto industry, I'd say that more people have been unhappy with their domestics than not. If it were the other way around, the domestics wouldn't be in trouble now would they?
 
Originally Posted By: boraticus


Good point about the parts but, when my wife brought her '92 Camry in for a new timing belt and pulleys (preventative maintenance), the repair costs were no worse than a domestic vehicle.


Most American vehicles don't use rubber timing belts - let that belt break and see how reasonable the repair costs are! Anyone that uses a rubber timing belt on an interference-fit engine ought to be shot !!

Remember, in 2008, Toyota recalled more vehicles than they built -- how's that for quality?
 
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Originally Posted By: bonnie john
nz's improvements to the world...


sir edmund hillary
kate shepard
sir ernest rutherford
peter jackson
pm david lange
richard pearse
bruce mclaren
charles upham
john britten
bill hamilton
jean batten
william pickering
katherine mansfield
nancy wake
keith park
colin murdoch


AND LETS NOT FORGET BURT MUNRO

p.s. and pavlova

not bad for a country with 1/100th the population of usa


How about Neil Armstrong? It's a little harder to walk on the Moon than climb Mt. Everest? Was there any NZs that walked on the Moon? -- I didn't think so.

But I'll give you John Britten -- engineering genius - par excellence.
 
Originally Posted By: ZGRider
Originally Posted By: boraticus


Good point about the parts but, when my wife brought her '92 Camry in for a new timing belt and pulleys (preventative maintenance), the repair costs were no worse than a domestic vehicle.


Most American vehicles don't use rubber timing belts - let that belt break and see how reasonable the repair costs are! Anyone that uses a rubber timing belt on an interference-fit engine ought to be shot !!

Remember, in 2008, Toyota recalled more vehicles than they built -- how's that for quality?


Rubber timing belts are used on numerous, very reliable engines with very few failures. I have a friend who owned a Honda Prelude that had the timing belt actually let go. No engine damage as a result. Not say that would happen in all cases. That depends on how far the valves can drop before making piston contact.

The only valve train problems I've had is push rod failures on the Fords, among a plethora of other things of course. No problems with anything on the Toyotas.

No, I don't recall that recall. Please refresh my memory.

You'd be shooting yourself in the foot if you start a "recall" debate. Suggest you allow that dog to lie undisturbed.
 
Originally Posted By: ZGRider
Originally Posted By: bonnie john
nz's improvements to the world...


sir edmund hillary
kate shepard
sir ernest rutherford
peter jackson
pm david lange
richard pearse
bruce mclaren
charles upham
john britten
bill hamilton
jean batten
william pickering
katherine mansfield
nancy wake
keith park
colin murdoch


AND LETS NOT FORGET BURT MUNRO

p.s. and pavlova

not bad for a country with 1/100th the population of usa


How about Neil Armstrong? It's a little harder to walk on the Moon than climb Mt. Everest? Was there any NZs that walked on the Moon? -- I didn't think so.

But I'll give you John Britten -- engineering genius - par excellence.


Let's not forget Verner Von Braun, father of the American space program, primarily responsible for putting that "man on the moon". A proud American by way of Chermany.....

Personally, I thing the greatest thing the USA has produced in recent history is the Hubble space telescope. Edwin Hubble, the man the name comes from was one of the USA's best home grown minds. I'd say that his work discovering the cosmos is one of the most important contributions to man kind. See following link.

http://www.esa.int/esaSC/SEMJLZWO4HD_index_0.html
 
Originally Posted By: boraticus


Rubber timing belts are used on numerous, very reliable engines with very few failures. I have a friend who owned a Honda Prelude that had the timing belt actually let go. No engine damage as a result. Not say that would happen in all cases. That depends on how far the valves can drop before making piston contact.



Not all vehicles with rubber timing belts are "interference-fit" engines (pistons will hit the open valves) Many older engines with these belts were not interference-fit, but many newer ones are. Hyundai is one example.
Rubber timing belts are very reliable if replaced according to service recommendations, but they are mainly used on smaller engines (4-cylinder, some V-6s) Most larger V-6s and V-8s are chain driven (ala Ford Modular V-8s) My comment was that if the belt does break (and they do) and if the engine is interference fit, then the motor is usually trashed.

Go to the PCMO section and there is a post about a Ford Truck 4.6 V-8 that used Schaeffer's oil with 500,000 miles and it was still in good shape before a mechanical problem sidelined it. That is the advantage of no timing belts -- how many times would a belt have had to be replaced in 500k miles? That's alot of service costs for something that doesn't need much maintenance.

Timing belts are OK, but I'll take timing chains even in a 4-cylinder engine like my MB 190E 2.3 (Yeah, I don't just own American vehicles, and BTW I have lots of kids, that's why I've owned lots of vehicles.)
 
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I suppose it's like anything, some last some don't. I prefer my Ford 7.3 diesel that is all gear drive, no chain or belt to worry about ever. Talk about trashing an engine and getting back to the motorcycle aspect of the thread, back in 1980 I had a buddy who was a mechanic at Sun Honda here in Denver. We were all into dragracing our streetbikes and try as he might he could never run the times on his 1979 Honda CBX that I could on my junky H2. One night his CBX was sitting there idling and we heard a quick ka-chunk and the camchain snapped bending 18 valves in the process. This was during idling on a motorcycle that probably had 5000 miles on it! Bad as a belt, HA
 
That's one of the wonderful things about two stroke engines. Fewer moving parts, twice the amount of power strokes and they love to spin. Power can be instantaneous once the engine is on the pipe. If you're ready for the power hit and can keep the bike under control, two strokes can be very quick.

I have a couple of old restored two strokes that are slightly enhanced. They're a lot of fun to ride.
 
zg

you asked for some of nz's contributions

then you dismiss them out of hand

what is it you REALLY want ???

ps did you even try and research some of the names i listed ?

doesn't sound like it m8
 
Originally Posted By: bonnie john
zg

you asked for some of nz's contributions

then you dismiss them out of hand

what is it you REALLY want ???

ps did you even try and research some of the names i listed ?

doesn't sound like it m8


BJ:

I'm was just "yankin' your chain", dude. I've got nothing against folks from down under. NZ is a beautiful place that anyone would love to live. I'm familiar with some of those people and they are deserving of my respect. Climbing Mt. Everest without O2 and primitive climbing gear and doing it first is quite an accomplishment. I don't have to even say anything about Britten, he is all our (motorcyclists) hero and I'd better know who Rutherford is -- I'm a HS science teacher.

You know how all us Americans like to "swagger" and talk nonsense. Sorry I upset you.... no foul-no offense?
 
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