Ending M1 OCI

[ericthepig]

My 98 Sienna is sitting on 8035 miles. My plans were to go to 10-12k on this oil. These plans are no more. I didn't chicken out. Read on if interested -

I have had an off forum discussion with BITOGr Mokanic - a Toyota Master Tech. I believe he has correctly discerned my oil consumption issue, and I am planning to proceed immediately with his suggested (non-intrusive) remedy.

I am burning one qt of rather expensive oil in the first 1k miles of an OCI, and 1 qt in subsequent 1.7k (this consumption rate has only appeared in the last couple of years). My compression is fine - I'm still getting the stated mpg for the van. So the compression rings are fine. Mokanic says Toyota engineered the oil rings for minimal wear on the cylinders (very low tension rings), the downside to this is that my 8-9k OCIs (even with Synth) have apparently gummed them up. BTW, a Toyota mech recently verified that I had no engine leaks.

So the Mokanic recommended cleaning process will begin immediately. I was planning a UOA at the end of this OCI. If someone can give me a good reason to do one at this pt, I would consider that. But I presently don't see it as worthwhile - my original fill of M1 EP 5w30 has had 3 qts of EP added to it and now 2 qts of 0w40. The UOA at 4.2k was fine except for an above average Fe. So the only thing a UOA at this pt would tell me is, does M1 (mainly EP) have an upward trend on Fe wear. BUT, I am not planning to ever revisit the M1 EP or reg. lines - so it's not worth $22.50 to Blackstone to answer this trivia question.

I'm thinking out loud here - but I'm wondering if this is the first part of the cascade that gells these engines. Blazing hot (areas of the) engine leads to deposits that gum the oil rings that lead to quick consumption that exacerbates step one above, etc. This thing eventually gummed them (assuming Mokanic is right) on a pure diet of M1 Tri-Synth and SuperSyn (albeit, slightly extended OCIs).

 

[Eddie]

To ungum a ring pack you may want to consider doing a Auto-Rx cleanup. www.auto-rx.com

 

[PT1]

I'd try a few short 3000 OCI's with PP and see what happens.

 

[CaspianM]

MY Sienna has not required a drop of oil with either M1 5W-30 nor the same SAE red cap after nearly 8000 miles. I use the same oil in my Camry 97 v6. I am wondering what it is. One quart seems hi for any oil or engine every 1.7 miles.
I broken the engine with dino for 6000 miles and did frequent OCI prior to use M1. My Sienna has about 23k miles on it.

 

[ericthepig]

Caspian, Mokanic said even with the miles on my van I shouldn't be using much oil even in 5k. I wasn't paying much attention to my increasing consumption, but as the details show, it's getting out of hand.

 

[ericthepig]

I plan to proceed with 2.5k OCIs with Shell Rotella 15w40 - the last 500 miles of the OCI I'll install the appropriate amt of Schaeffers Neutra 131. I'll also be running Neutra in the gas on a regular basis during the cleaning process. Mokanic stated the Neutra is a good cleaner w/ this application method. Also, Bob (of BITOG fame) did some analysis on Neutra that showed it to be a capable and safe detergent.

 

[beanoil]

I agree with the Neutra treat, but would change the oil and filter, add the Neutra, and do a short run of 700 miles. This is what was recommended to me by Schaeffer's tech support, and in the Bob thread. I have grown quite fond of the line of Schaeffer's products of late. My personal experience with Neutra was on a 95 Chevy K truck. A small amount of sludge was noticed while changing VC gaskets. I did the Neutra/ATF mix as suggested by Bob with a run of Delvac. The oil was pitch black after 700 miles, and the sludge that was there for all practical purposes, was gone. I suggest you try the Schaeffer 7000 when you are finished. Pretty amazing stuff; it has the Neutra base, Penetro and a good dose of moly built in. Those folks at Schaeffer's are really nice, and a quick call to them can answer any questions. Good luck!

 

[ericthepig]

My two gripes w/ synthetics - though neither is necessarily fair to the synth.

I ran Amsoil and M1 in my Mazda thru the mid-1990s - always 1yr OCIs, some were true 25k OCIs. At the end of that synth. use I had an oil leak and serious smoke plumes at start-up. (The oil leak was fixed by a return to dino and later the smoke plumes almost non-existent with HM oil.) I believe the valve guide issue is likely deposits built up in the seals. The oil didn't protect me from this. I know that it's pretty much now accepted that synths just realistically shouldn't be pushed that far.

2nd - I've run M1 in my van for almost 80k. I now have serious consumption which given the facts pts to gummed oil rings. Synth didn't protect me. The OCIs were 4 to 5k in the four months of winter and 8 to 9k in the rest of the year. So perhaps a synth cannot deal with a known sludge engine for upwards of 9k OCIs. Note, the majority of this M1 run was before the theorized switch to grp III for the reg. line.

 

[ericthepig]

And wouldn't UOAs have MISSED both of my growing issues (in the Mazda and the Van)? If so, that's a real shortcoming for a UOA when looking at extended OCIs.

 

[bmwtechguy]

Sounds like a plan-let us know what your results are with the stated method. I would like to see if this takes your consumption down to something more reasonable, say like one quart every 5k miles. I have had good results from the Auto-RX, but it does cost more to use than the Schaeffers Neutra, which costs about $15-20 per gallon.

I have noticed some cars consume Mobil 1 5W-30 at a higher rate than other comparable oils. Not sure of why this is so. I am not as big a M1 fan anymore now after using Amsoil and now Schaeffers.

 

[ericthepig]

My future (after cleaning) is likely with Schaeffers 9000 given my vans internals.

I'm really glad I've learned the details on Schaeffers. Schaeffers (and a few other companies) seems obsessed with oil, not with market share - and they don't deal with Wally World pricing pressures. And they're very open w/ the details on their base stock formulations and with their additives. Gives my hobby kind've a purist feel that I wasn't getting with the name brands. (Though I still believe M1 0w40 was/is an uncompromised labor of love by the M1 engineers.) I really look forward to my first fill w/ Schaeffers - though it's a bit on the horizon.

 

[ericthepig]

Thanks for the advice beanoil. Will consider that.

 

[unDummy]

Actually, UOAs might've prevented the situations.

I find that most engine issues are caused by running an engine too long. UOA would spot that very quickly.

I don't have gripes with synthetic or mineral oils, and probably never will. I do have gripes with OCI intervals that many owners blindly chose.

So, what cleaning program are you adapting?

 

[buster]

Do you think engines with low tension rings need more WOT during break-in to properly seat/seal the rings to avoid excessive oil consumption/blow by etc.?

 

[MatchboxCar]

The answer with the Fe and the latest M1 types in both 5W-20 and 10W-30... Yes, I am finding increased Fe levels in my UOA. Esp with the EP versions. THis is 6 to 9 K OCI.

 

[ericthepig]

unDummy, what part of a UOA tells you you're getting deposits on certain engines parts? I'm not disagreeing with you, I just can't figure it out sitting here thinking about it. BTW, I detail the cleaning method above. Though I didn't pt out that I'm going to (today) put in Shell Rotella 15w40 and a can of SeaFoam that I need to use (was planning to use it on my Mazda) - I want to get this process started. Will then get the Neutra and start using it in the gas and start with it in the oil in the next (short) OCI.

buster - I'm thinking this van never saw WOT in it's youth. It was using oil when I got it, but I can't remember at what rate. But it wasn't at the present rate.

 

[ericthepig]

Something just sparked in the memory. The earliest consumption I can remember (several yrs back) was a qt in 3k. Which I (apparently wrongly) assumed was reasonable.

 

[unDummy]

Things to look for:
If TBN drops too quickly or is run until there is none, if moisture is present in the oil, if excessive fuel is present in the oil, if wear is excessive, if oil viscosity is excessively high or low, if insolubles are too high, if oxidation is too high, if particles counts are excessive, if there is antifreeze detected, and the list goes on.......

You might not see sludge in a UOA but there are many precursors to a sludged engine that can be seen as warnings.

Every sludged engine that I've worked on could have been prevented with better OCI practices. MOST would've been detected by a UOA by someone that knows how to read it.

Blind OCI intervals, and manufacturers(both oil and auto) recommending long OCIs without UOA, is risky.

To think that the heyday of clean engines occurred when jippylube was recommending and pushing the 3k/3m OCI. Find anything but anti-quicklube info on the web is almost impossible.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Like the plan N-131 is good stuff. I would change one thing and only one thing. I would not run the measly 1 once per quart of oil as the lable recomends. That is fine for a realatively clean engine but for one that is gumed uo drop the entire bottle in and leave it in for the extent of the oil change. Then after that for the next 3-5 oil changes add the 1 once per quart as the label instructs. You can also use N131 to soak the pistons directly as well. Seeing how you are going with 15W40 anyway the viscosity change from adding one bottle is not going to hurt anything.

Bob, used 1 botle in his Escort for a 10,000 mile oil change interval on dino and he also used one bottle on a dirty nast Toyota pickup. Then we have the sludge removal phot's from Molakule that wereon this site prior to Auto-Rx takeing over. SO I am not makeing up the whole bottle recomendation it is well proven to be safe and effective.

 

[ericthepig]

John, Sounds like a good plan. Thanks!