Emissions Standards Then and Now

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Everyone here is against all the CAFE [censored] but now they all hate VW...Total hipocracy!

I'm not for or against CAFE, but I think it is clearly CAFE did some good for drivers/owners.

Just look back 25 years ago, most family sedans with 2.0-2.2L 110-130 HP 4-cyl engine of 1990 had combined MPG of low 20's, now a much larger/heavier family sedans with 2.4-2.5L 170-180 HP 4-cyl engine have combined MPG of high 20's to low 30's. On highway some mid-sized sedans can achieve high 30 MPG at speed of 70-75 MPH.

At the same time produces much less harmful pollution.

No, I don't hate VW for their cars as they do have some nicer cars than other manufactures, but intentionally cheating the emission testing system, in doing so violated the laws of the land so they can lip frog competitors to sell their dirty diesel cars as a clean car.

As you know, we, Californian, pay extra 15-20 cents/gal for clean gasoline to reduce harmful pollution, then came the dirty diesel VW advertised as green car.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Originally Posted By: CT8
I am sad VW was ratted out.



Me too...My hats off to them..Stickin it to the Man! Very creative idea and too bad they caught caught.

Everyone here is against all the CAFE [censored] but now they all hate VW...Total hipocracy!


No everyone who posts here has a jihad against the EPA--it's just that an unbelievably vocal few just post ad naseum... My favorite is that the EPA is liable because they didn't catch it soon enough. So...I guess they should have a larger budget and more oversight? Is that what you're saying??? Seriously, some of the ridiculous tripe reminds me of why I don't spend much time on this forum any longer.

As far as VW's, I don't think most people are claiming that the cars are single-handedly turn back all of the gains made with respect to emissions; but "still less than the 1950's" is a pretty low bar. Having grown up the 70's, I'd rather not go back to those days. I don't think today's standards are unreasonable, and the auto mfg's have had plenty of time to meet them. Most seemingly have done so.

The bigger issue, as stated my many, is that VW engaged in some serious fraud, and the consequences are going to be huge. Of course, to some this is still Obama's fault...and any regulatory agency doing it's job is or course evil. Most people see this for what it is though, which is corporate culture at its worst. Consumers, shareholders and employees are going to be hit the worst, though given the scope I wouldn't be surprised to see some guys in expensive suits going to jail or it eventually.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
There certainly are diminishing returns for these things. We're definitely in that regime now. I despise how in the interest of a fraction of a ppm of NOx, were willing to add tons of CO2 and other junk...

I agree that current emission control laws isn't perfect, I would choose a little higher NOx to substantially reduce CO2.

But the laws is the laws, every company wants to sell vehicles in US must comply with the restriction of NOx, CO ... while under test and in normal daily use. Until the laws are changed, no other way around it.

 

[Benito]

Originally Posted By: JOD
No everyone who posts here has a jihad against the EPA--it's just that an unbelievably vocal few just post ad naseum... My favorite is that the EPA is liable because they didn't catch it soon enough. So...I guess they should have a larger budget and more oversight? Is that what you're saying??? Seriously, some of the ridiculous tripe reminds me of why I don't spend much time on this forum any longer.


+1

Out of all the regulatory agencies in the world, including Europe where they are more pro-environment and have 50%+ diesels, it was in the US and in Cali, that this worldwide problem with VWs was uncovered.

Now there is talk of changing test procedures for all diesels as well as reports of diesels being culpable for pollution in Europe in excess of what was expected based on manufacturer testing.

So in fact in terms of air quality compliance, the USA actually leads the world. Cali in particular as they have the highest air quality standards in this country and weren't even letting in diesels that are allowed in Europe. And that itself seems to have been a great call.

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: bakechad
No second chances:

VW intentionally committed fraud, I'll never own a VW

Ford allowed people to die with the Pinto, I'll never own a Ford (regardless of how many years have went by)

Toyota lied and manipulated information about their acceleration problems, I'll never own a Toyota

If they lie about one thing, they probably are lying about many other things.

Sooner or later I may run out of makes to choose from, but right now I'm okay.



Subaru is toyota owned...

 

[fdcg27]

You make a very good point.
Both tightened CAFE and exhaust emissions standards have forced the development of very sophisticated engine control hardware and software to the benefit of all drivers.
I'll give you a practical example.
We helped our older son make a longish move this week, with me contributing our old E350 as an additional hauler to compliment the rental truck that he got.
The 351W in this large, heavy vehicle consumed only 21 gallons of fuel in 344 miles, which seems pretty good for an old school sows ear of an engine not noted for its efficiency and is certainly better than what the same engine would have delivered as installed in a 'seventies station wagon.

 

[bakechad]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic


Subaru is toyota owned...


Toyota owns 8.7% (as of a few months ago) and is limited on how much they can own due to Japanese anti-trust laws.

If you own an International balanced fund or index fund, you probably own part of Subaru (Fuji Heavy Industries) as well.

But don't get me wrong, I'm no Subaru or Honda fanboy, they just have been caught doing anything really bad, yet.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: bakechad
Originally Posted By: Jetronic


Subaru is toyota owned...


Toyota owns 8.7% (as of a few months ago) and is limited on how much they can own due to Japanese anti-trust laws.

If you own an International balanced fund or index fund, you probably own part of Subaru (Fuji Heavy Industries) as well.

But don't get me wrong, I'm no Subaru or Honda fanboy, they just have been caught doing anything really bad, yet.


When do you get rid of the Honda?

 

[javacontour]

This is what I'm getting at. I thought I was clear that I don't want dirty air. I don't want cheating either. It's not fair to those meeting the standards or refusing to enter tje market because they cannot meet the standards in an economical fashion.

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
There certainly are diminishing returns for these things. We're definitely in that regime now. I despise how in the interest of a fraction of a ppm of NOx, were willing to add tons of CO2 and other junk...

 

[beanoil]

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: beanoil



OMG, that's funny.

 

[Vikas]

If only there was a God, and certain individual(s) were owning a VW, I would have been thrilled to hear his diatribe against EPA on this debacle. He would have popped a vein by this time.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: bakechad
No second chances:

VW intentionally committed fraud, I'll never own a VW

Ford allowed people to die with the Pinto, I'll never own a Ford (regardless of how many years have went by)

Toyota lied and manipulated information about their acceleration problems, I'll never own a Toyota

If they lie about one thing, they probably are lying about many other things.

Sooner or later I may run out of makes to choose from, but right now I'm okay.

GM "sorta forgot" about their ignition switch problems which may have killed what, 130 people? They sortta ignored the swing axles on the early Corvairs as well, and the occasionally incendiary Fiero. Did you leave THEM off your list on purpose?

 

[Andrew1972]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
The problem that I see is VW intentionally violate the emission laws.


And beyond that violated FTC rules in advertising their products as Clean and eco. Pure lies.

Just me but every first owner at least deserves the overpriced premium they paid for a TDI engine vs gasser back in form of check. Currently that equates to about $3000 at least.

 

[Olas]

GM ignition switches killed hundreds.

VW fails emissions and the world goes nuts.

 

[Andrew1972]

Originally Posted By: Olas
GM ignition switches killed hundreds.

VW fails emissions and the world goes nuts.



Did engineering set out/intend to hurt anyone at GM at onset nope. Did VW set out to defraud governments and consumers yes......

GM and VW not worth mentioning in same sentence except they are both cars and have to get recalled.

 

[raytseng]

Originally Posted By: Olas
GM ignition switches killed hundreds.

VW fails emissions and the world goes nuts.


If anything you should be madder at VW.
From a purely selfish point of view, unless you were personally related to one of the people who died, those dead people had zero effect on you.

But the VW situation does affect you slightly, in that the air you breathe is dirtier; , as well as the profits they took may have damaged the competition, and whatever car you bought might be less good, as the other companies had to compete on an unfair field.
They've ruined the trust in diesel industry; which overall is going to affect your ability to have a choice in vehicles in the future.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
There certainly are diminishing returns for these things. We're definitely in that regime now. I despise how in the interest of a fraction of a ppm of NOx, were willing to add tons of CO2 and other junk...


Absolutely true. Modern vehicles are so clean they can actually emit cleaner air than they took in in some polluted areas. There is a point of diminishing returns, and we are already there.

As for cheaters, well they get caught eventually. Just wait till all the Audi owners find they have the same software...

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
there.

As for cheaters, well they get caught eventually. Just wait till all the Audi owners find they have the same software...


that was announced on the radio today... over 2 million audi's in europe with the same cheat

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Olas
GM ignition switches killed hundreds.

We have to go easy on GM. They've been struggling with ignition switches since about 1967. Someday, they'll master it.