Elon Musk Expects Tesla’s Main Rival Will Be a Chinese EV Maker

Tesla has a factory in Shanghai.
Yes, no kidding… and?

Tesla is using CATL cells to gain a market. The requirements to keep in that market may well change. And the shareholders may demand the cheap components from the third world… we are already seeing the cost reduction measures. What about when those become more offshoring of everything? I don’t think US cars use Shanghai cells. But that could be in the cards. That was the point.
 
China has a big problem that hardy anyone talks about, their decades of one child policy is finally bearing fruits. They have an aging population problem that cannot be easily and quickly fixed. So I would not bank on China that much.


Peter Zeihan has really solid insights to their problems.

They have incredibly serious problems.
Several stem from population.
They do not have enough internal demand to keep their industry alive.

Most of the high tech workers are imported.

Their own people cannot build or operate chip fabs. The fab and chip ban is a real problem for them.
They chips they do make arent advanced enough to do anything with.

Despite an endless bucket of education - and stealing IP for decades - they dont actually teach skills but focus on memorization so their internal base cannot replace external knowledge.

They are the most dependent country on imports.

If you haven't been watching they've canned the " wolf warrior" strategy of trying to get tough with the world.

This is before you get to the real estate crisis they've allowed to happen.
 
Peter Zeihan has really solid insights to their problems.

They have incredibly serious problems.
Several stem from population.
They do not have enough internal demand to keep their industry alive.

Most of the high tech workers are imported.

Their own people cannot build or operate chip fabs. The fab and chip ban is a real problem for them.
They chips they do make arent advanced enough to do anything with.

Despite an endless bucket of education - and stealing IP for decades - they dont actually teach skills but focus on memorization so their internal base cannot replace external knowledge.

They are the most dependent country on imports.

If you haven't been watching they've canned the " wolf warrior" strategy of trying to get tough with the world.

This is before you get to the real estate crisis they've allowed to happen.
Good points, but remember, the west has been saying similar things the last 40+ years.
 
Yes, no kidding… and?

Tesla is using CATL cells to gain a market. The requirements to keep in that market may well change. And the shareholders may demand the cheap components from the third world… we are already seeing the cost reduction measures. What about when those become more offshoring of everything? I don’t think US cars use Shanghai cells. But that could be in the cards. That was the point.


Geez, everyone is edgy today.

I was just going by what was said. “How long until Tesla offshores like the rest of them?”

If the plant is in place and the cost savings are there then Tesla will do it.
 
Geez, everyone is edgy today.

I was just going by what was said. “How long until Tesla offshores like the rest of them?”

If the plant is in place and the cost savings are there then Tesla will do it.
Shanghai services the Asian market and part of Europe I believe. The $25K Tesla was slated for production there; rumors now have it at a new factory in Mexico. Tesla is aiming for 50% cost reduction for this car. One would expect it to be produced in China as well to compete with the BYD and other cheaper EVs coming to market there.

It is no secret that production in China has potential looming difficulties that Mexico does not...
 
BYD is in partnership with Toyota through a technical agreement to produce select BZ BEVs (they had issues taking over Panasonic). BYD has great admiration and aspirations to become Toyota in the EV segment (ironic since Toyota wants to be the leader in EVs as well).

Tesla is 100% on the money on this one. I think what investor day mentioned 25% profits now, mostly on the higher spec/trim levels, I wonder what that number is on lower base spec model 3Ys?
 
BYD is in partnership with Toyota through a technical agreement to produce select BZ BEVs (they had issues taking over Panasonic). BYD has great admiration and aspirations to become Toyota in the EV segment (ironic since Toyota wants to be the leader in EVs as well).

Tesla is 100% on the money on this one. I think what investor day mentioned 25% profits now, mostly on the higher spec/trim levels, I wonder what that number is on lower base spec model 3Ys?
They sell very few X and S vehicles. Low production does not favor high margins.
Part commonality, low configuration complexity, vertical integration and factory utilization are Tesla's margin leverage.
 
China has a big problem that hardy anyone talks about, their decades of one child policy is finally bearing fruits. They have an aging population problem that cannot be easily and quickly fixed. So I would not bank on China that much.
Except robots.

They don't need legions of workers, just to keep bringing in the rice paddy exports that are willing to be schooled and live in community dorms.

This will change, but it will take another few dozen years.

Do bank on China, nobody else has the same combination of tech, just in time industry geographic alignments, low BOM, and labor cost. They've already proven this in so many other sectors, why would automobiles be any different unless there are massive tariffs, that also impact all the other goods we get from them? It's a balancing act, and the scales always tip in the favor of who has access to more lower cost battery materials, and lower construction costs. Early entry in market was just a bubble in the long term radar.

The only obstacle to China dominating pretty much all consumer goods at this point is tariffs. Note I wrote consumer, professional applications still demand a better QC in many cases. I take that back, Chinese citizens are noticing their disparities, but I don't see a revolution any year soon?

India could step up their game except they seem to keep having the philosophy that it's better to try to lie through marketing rather than improve product quality. Perhaps I have overgeneralized, but that's the trend I've seen and I'm not going to argue about it, just state that nobody I know, would buy an Indian made product at the same price point, but they could change that if they wanted to.

It's all about exploiting the citizens to get materials and labor cheaper. Dangle education in front of the right people and they will work their way out of a bad life, and that's not all bad, but it is bad for the US where people aren't so desperate.
 
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China has a big problem that hardy anyone talks about, their decades of one child policy is finally bearing fruits. They have an aging population problem that cannot be easily and quickly fixed. So I would not bank on China that much.
Why do you think they took down COVID restrictions?
 
They sell very few X and S vehicles. Low production does not favor high margins.
The Model S and X are the highest profit per vehicle in Tesla lineup regardless of trim; even with low sales volume each unit is money in the bank. The Model 3 and Y need to be speced to the teeth to push a healthy profit margin. The basic model 3 and Y move number, but profit is minuscule.

Part commonality, low configuration complexity, vertical integration and factory utilization are Tesla's margin leverage.
They have had those items for a while now. The question remains what other items can they optimize to hold off future expected price cuts, and further margin cuts as they seek to maintain their growth model. I assume March/Highland preview will showcase this.
 
For those without a subscription:
The Chinese problem is a basic one: they are not a democracy.
Authoritarian regimes are very, VERY good in coping and getting results fast based on that.
However, once actual innovation is required, the system is in the way of innovation, bcs. well, innovation requires freedom of thinking, expression, and ideas.
 
Good points, but remember, the west has been saying similar things the last 40+ years.
Not really. Their population issues are fairly recent - due to the 1 child policy along with lower reproductive rates just like all the other modern countries. 1 child policy started in 1979 - so your really just starting to see the major affects of that. Labor rates in China have risen almost 20X in the last 30 years. Its not really that cheap to manufacture in China anymore.

On the other hand, they still have a number of years before things totally collapse, and they have likely stolen every Tesla Patent or innovation already - so a Tesla knock off should be coming to a walmart near you shortly.
 
Why do you think they took down COVID restrictions?
With the communist regime we can only guess, they can impose these restriction again and without warning just as quickly as they took them down. They created many isolation camps and they will use them. They all have used them, under different names though.

West is just now starting to learn a bit just how fickle a tyrannical regime can be. We didn’t do any business with USSR during Cold War era so there is nothing to compare and we all were told that China is different. It is absolutely not, it’s actually worse.
 
With the communist regime we can only guess, they can impose these restriction again and without warning just as quickly as they took them down. They created many isolation camps and they will use them. They all have used them, under different names though.

West is just now starting to learn a bit just how fickle a tyrannical regime can be. We didn’t do any business with USSR during Cold War era so there is nothing to compare and we all were told that China is different. It is absolutely not, it’s actually worse.
I heard this theory yesterday from one professor who knows China very well. It is good opportunity to get rid of older population.

But comparisons with USSR cannot be made. USSR was different ball game. China is far, far different.
 
I heard this theory yesterday from one professor who knows China very well. It is good opportunity to get rid of older population.

But comparisons with USSR cannot be made. USSR was different ball game. China is far, far different.
People will have different opinions, but my parents grew up under a communist regime and I remember it as a small child, and from my view what China is doing and how it treats its people is no different and is actually worse in many regards than USSR.

The difference is that West is doing business with China and is hugely dependent on their goods and labor, where they didn’t do that with USSR, so the media, corporate and political machine lie and hide Chinas true character and what is really going on there.
 
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