Elon Musk Expects Tesla’s Main Rival Will Be a Chinese EV Maker

[OVERKILL]

To add, China, unlike USSR, allows huge numbers of their students to study abroad. They actually go back!
USSR allowed ONLY certain small numbers of students to go out. It was such a small number that Yugoslavia had more students in the US than countries of Warsaw Pack together, anywhere else on yearly basis.
In 1954, KGB general in visit to the US said that American nuclear weapons are not the biggest threat, but student exchange programs.

Bcs. of that, Xi is threading fine line today. Any economic downturn, and educated masses will start questioning regime. So far, they managed to avoid that bcs. social contract, “CCP gives you economic progress, you give us power,” worked.

I think the point made by @SC Maintenance about China having presence beyond its borders is a significant factor in their "comfort" level with allowing things like study abroad and the like. They do in fact have police stations all over the place, how the Western world has allowed this is beyond me, but it has happened. And this of course is due to the positioning of China with respect to trade. Unlike the Soviet Union, which we had no material or financial dependence upon, China has bought up debt, companies, land...etc all over the world. They are sewn into the fabric of all western society, integrated deeply such that any sudden move to decouple that dependence would cause massive tearing and disruption. It was smart, cold and calculated. As I mentioned in a past conversation on this subject, China is playing the long game while the West is too preoccupied with next quarter's profit postings.

 

[OVERKILL]

Going back to the main theme - during the Beijing olympics it became very clear to the chinese government and population that having clean air and blue skies is a good thing. Since then they have been pushing to clean up the environment. Electric cars are one of the ways to do that.

Nowadays you will very frequently see cars with green number plates on the roads. Vast majority of them are Chinese brands with a few Teslas sprinkled in. The mopeds are all electric as well. The skies are blue and the air is clean so it has been a major win for the policy makers.

Sure, but there are many parts of China (the industrial ones) that look like Mordor.

 

[edyvw]

I think the point made by @SC Maintenance about China having presence beyond its borders is a significant factor in their "comfort" level with allowing things like study abroad and the like. They do in fact have police stations all over the place, how the Western world has allowed this is beyond me, but it has happened. And this if course is due to the positioning of China with respect to trade. Unlike the Soviet Union, which we had no material or financial dependence upon, China has bought up debt, companies, land...etc all over the world. They are sewn into the fabric of all western society, integrated deeply such that any sudden move to decouple that dependence would cause massive tearing and disruption. It was smart, cold and calculated. As I mentioned in a past conversation on this subject, China is playing the long game while the West is too preoccupied with next quarter's profit postings.

How you mean it is beyond you?
It is access to the Chinese market. Same way Brits allowed Russian oligarchs to buy half a London etc.
Forget principles and freedom, it is money.
That is why I said in previous threads that Elon owning Twitter is huge issue. Eventually, CCP will blackmail him to turn in personal data for access to the market, if they didn’t do it already.

 

[SC Maintenance]

To add, China, unlike USSR, allows huge numbers of their students to study abroad. They actually go back!
USSR allowed ONLY certain small numbers of students to go out. It was such a small number that Yugoslavia had more students in the US than countries of Warsaw Pack together, anywhere else on yearly basis.
In 1954, KGB general in visit to the US said that American nuclear weapons are not the biggest threat, but student exchange programs.

Bcs. of that, Xi is threading fine line today. Any economic downturn, and educated masses will start questioning regime. So far, they managed to avoid that bcs. social contract, “CCP gives you economic progress, you give us power,” worked.

Yes, if your from a wealthy CCP family with the right credentials you get to study abroad (and potentially steal secrets from the university for the CCP, but I digress). But its not like some smart kid from the rice paddy gets to go to Yale.

 

[Vil_Riker]

Yes, if your from a wealthy CCP family with the right credentials you get to study abroad (and potentially steal secrets from the university for the CCP, but I digress). But its not like some smart kid from the rice paddy gets to go to Yale.

It's CPC, not CCP.

 

[KrisZ]

But, comparing it to USSR is absolutely insane.

What’s insane is pretending that China is our ally and had “learned their lesson”. And I’m not suggesting that you think that, but this kind of talk is designed to put China in a positive light.

Like I said earlier, the maniac we all know as Stalin was “uncle Joe” at one point. How we treat China now is no different IMO

 

[edyvw]

Yes, if your from a wealthy CCP family with the right credentials you get to study abroad (and potentially steal secrets from the university for the CCP, but I digress). But its not like some smart kid from the rice paddy gets to go to Yale.

On yearly basis there are 90,000 Chinese students in the US. I would say, not all are rich.
Still, no money could buy you study abroad in USSR.

 

[OVERKILL]

How you mean it is beyond you?
It is access to the Chinese market. Same way Brits allowed Russian oligarchs to buy half a London etc.
Forget principles and freedom, it is money.

I mean, I can't wrap my head around how people could be so intentionally dim to not see the long-term implications of this sort of decision. Yes, I know it's about money, but it's still appalling.

That is why I said in previous threads that Elon owning Twitter is huge issue. Eventually, CCP will blackmail him to turn in personal data for access to the market, if they didn’t do it already.

Guess we'll see how this goes, lol.

 

[edyvw]

What’s insane is pretending that China is our ally and had “learned their lesson”. And I’m not suggesting that you think that, but this kind of talk is designed to put China in a positive light.

Like I said earlier, the maniac we all know as Stalin was “uncle Joe” at one point. How we treat China now is no different IMO

Well, I am not sure who claims China i a friend for real. I mean “for real “ as business interests outweighs rest. China is biggest market for Boeing, Tesla etc. We actually export A LOT to China. It is symbiotic relationship and one that has to be threaded carefully.

 

[edyvw]

I mean, I can't wrap my head around how people could be so intentionally dim to not see the long-term implications of this sort of decision. Yes, I know it's about money, but it's still appalling.

Guess we'll see how this goes, lol.

Will see. Biggest concern with that is data of Chinese dissidents etc.

 

[nthach]

Toyota.
A lot of people criticize Toyota for not producing/selling battery EVs, but the fact is that they are well involved in their engineering and production. They are just not selling them here, yet. Elon knows this.

BYD has also giving the American/Canadian transit bus makers(mostly Gillig and El Dorado since they focus on smaller fleets, but also New Flyer and NovaBus as well) indigestion lately with their BEV buses. LA Metro, Stanford, and a few others in CA have been buying BYD buses as either a test fleet or whole fleet orders.

 

[nthach]

We actually export A LOT to China. It is symbiotic relationship and one that has to be threaded carefully.

But also Walmart/Target, Home Depot, Amazon(who might as well be part of Alibaba these days since 60-70% of stuff I see in the Bezos/Jassy universe is simply resold goods from AliExpress) and the dollar stores are very dependent on China.

California’s Central Valley, as well as the beef/pork/soy producing parts of the Midwest/Rockies consider China to be an important market(much of the outgoing cargo from the Port of Oakland is American produce and livestock bound for China).

 

[KrisZ]

Well, I am not sure who claims China i a friend for real. I mean “for real “ as business interests outweighs rest. China is biggest market for Boeing, Tesla etc. We actually export A LOT to China. It is symbiotic relationship and one that has to be threaded carefully.

That view has changed significantly because of the pandemic, but young Americans tend to view China and how it governs itself favorably.


https://www.axios.com/2018/08/28/approval-china-americans-young-people

 

[nthach]

Will see. Biggest concern with that is data of Chinese dissidents etc.

The Chinese CCTV vendors(Dahua and Hikvision) have been known to help surveil the Uighurs as well as participate in their social credit program. But yet, some very sensitive accounts here in the US use Hikvision CCTV equipment. Microsoft 365 for China had to use Baidu or Alibaba’s infrastructure as a requirement for the CCP.

 

[OVERKILL]

But also Walmart/Target, Home Depot, Amazon(who might as well be part of Alibaba these days since 60-70% of stuff I see in the Bezos/Jassy universe is simply resold goods from AliExpress) and the dollar stores are very dependent on China.

California’s Central Valley, as well as the beef/pork/soy producing parts of the Midwest/Rockies consider China to be an important market(much of the outgoing cargo from the Port of Oakland is American produce and livestock bound for China).

There's also farmed seafood in China that we import (shrimp for example...)

You've touched on the blight of unfettered consumerism that currently plagues the West however. This is being exploited by corporate giants (Walmart, Amazon...etc) who know they can peddle absolute garbage and consumers will continue to buy it, possibly complaining about COO and the loss of American jobs (blah blah blah) and then complain again when they buy its replacement when it inevitably breaks, but they are wholly unwilling to break the cycle.

 

[Vil_Riker]

@OVERKILL, importing stuff for China is getting things for free. We print the money and pay for actual goods with it. It's a sweet deal. It's like financing your lifestyle with a credit card where you issue your own card.

 

[ecotourist]

For those who are still stuck on China copying things, it’s way too late.

That seems to be a very good way to start out.

Japan did that. That gave them a starting base and they took off from there.

 

[SC Maintenance]

It's CPC, not CCP.

Chinese Communist Party - CCP, unless your a member of it. Ill call them what I like - if only to differentiate from China itself, which is both a geographic location and bunch people who are mostly working stiff's much like us.

 

[edyvw]

That view has changed significantly because of the pandemic, but young Americans tend to view China and how it governs itself favorably.


https://www.axios.com/2018/08/28/approval-china-americans-young-people

That is consequence of constant narrative how US is collapsing. Bad news and fear sells. Good news is not a news. People look for comparisons, and if constant narrative is that China is so successful, they will look at it favorably, without understanding real problems, bcs. everything is hypothetical from their point of view.

 

[Vil_Riker]

Chinese Communist Party - CCP, unless your a member of it. Ill call them what I like - if only to differentiate from China itself, which is both a geographic location and bunch people who are mostly working stiff's much like us.

Communist Party of China. You would never call our country AUS - American United States. Names matter.