Electronic shifting and off-road reliability

[MRC01]

Last weekend I rode the Cascade Gravel Grinder in Sisters, OR. I encountered 4 riders whose electronic shifting failed on them during the ride. 2 of them were by the side of the road waiting for the support crew, and 2 of them finished the ride on their newly minted "single-speed" bikes, falling far behind the lead of course. I don't know of any mechanical shifting failures, though they may have happened.

And of course Lachlan Morton famously had the same problem on last year's Tour Divide. When he spoke afterward, someone asked him why he used electronic instead of mechanical shifting on such a long, remote, rugged ride. He replied, "Because I'm an idiot". You don't make it through a ride like that without having a sense of humor.

Levity aside, I wonder if we will see demand for mechanical shifting for rides in remote rugged terrain. My friend is doing the tour divide this year with his new electronic drivetrain and it introduces hassles you don't get with mechanical shifting: bring multiple batteries, how to charge them on the road, etc. And also, it seems, higher risk of failure.

Your thoughts & experiences?

 

[dogememe]

I didn’t even know you could get a bicycle with electronic shifting. Then again I haven’t been on one in like 10 years so…

 

[MRC01]

If you want a top end groupset you have no choice. Shimano and SRAM stopped making their top of the line groupsets with mechanical shifting.

 

[AZjeff]

What caused the 4 failures? Water, crash, mud packed, bad battery, low battery, e-shifter bad, etc etc?

 

[MRC01]

What caused the 4 failures? Water, crash, mud packed, bad battery, low battery, e-shifter bad, etc etc?

In short, I don't know. Normally I would have stopped to help them with their mechanical, so I would have found out. But since it was a supported ride, I knew they already support on the way so I didn't.

The ride was off-road with a plenty of fine dust and for the second half of the day, rain & mud.

 

[#18FAN]

I’m a fan of electronic shift Road Bikes yes off road I wouldn’t touch one.

 

[853okg]

As a person who has been in the bike industry since the Ultra 6 freewheel was a big deal I feel qualified to comment. Most of what’s happened in cycling since the 90s isn’t good. Today the expectation is that you’ll spend 10 to 20 thousand dollars on a bicycle that you’ll replace in five years. To my way of thinking this is insane. It’s exactly the opposite of what initially attracted me to cycling.
Having said that, from a purely performance standpoint, e shifting is a real breakthrough, and quite reliable. Most people who have it don’t know how it works or how to install or update it. If they do, and use it properly it’s extremely unlikely they’ll get stranded.
Personally, my larger objection is philosophical. At what point does your GPS equipped ebike with electronic shifting and adaptive lighting become a BMW scooter? I’m not judging anyone. I do think it’s ironic that not long ago you could get a top of the line, handcrafted bicycle that was fully serviceable and would last forever while living in a world in which you were free to burn all the sub one dollar gasoline you wanted. Now we’re living in a society that’s brainwashed everyone that the environment and social justice are the biggest problems we have, and we no longer fix or keep things but throw them away and replace them. If anyone thinks cycling is environmentally friendly in 2024 he’s nuts. And imagine what your grandpa would have thought if you told him that you’d be buying a thousand dollar telephone and throwing it away every few years to buy another.

 

[NYEngineer]

I build wheels so I get to speak with a lot of riders. I'm surprised at the amount of riders use electronic shifting. 99% of my customers are off road. No one has a bad word to say about it.

 

[MRC01]

I build wheels so I get to speak with a lot of riders. I'm surprised at the amount of riders use electronic shifting. 99% of my customers are off road. No one has a bad word to say about it.

Apparently, you didn't hear what those riders whose electronic shifting failed were saying.

 

[supton]

I'm too old school, while index shifting is nice, I suspect I'll go back to friction if my shifter ever gives up. Wouldn't be allowed to post on BITOG if I wasn't leery of anything new.

IMO bikes are too expensive... I mean, I like 9 speed, it's a nice spot between number of gears, durability and cost. At least to me. But at some point, when a bike costs what a car does, it just isn't worth that much to me. Not against expensive bikes, just like I'm not against expensive exotic cars--but I'll never own one, only the pedestrian ones. I worry about if I need to replace my good road bike, or need something NLA (been a problem for the FD).

Long live 9 speed! (and triples)

 

[MRC01]

... I like 9 speed, it's a nice spot between number of gears, durability and cost. At least to me. But at some point, when a bike costs what a car does, it just isn't worth that much to me. ...

Our tandem is a Santana from 1999 with Ultegra 9 speed. We've put thousands of miles on it and it still runs like new. I've replaced tires, brake pads, chains & sprockets, and serviced (but not replaced) the bearings of course but that is it. Otherwise original.

My full suspension MTB is from 2014, top of the line for its time (carbon frame & wheels, SRAM XX1). Here I've seen how modern equipment is less durable/reliable. I've of course replaced tires, brake pads, chains & sprockets and bearings. But also:

• The rear rim carbon delaminated, so I got a warranty replacement from Reynolds and rebuilt the wheel.
• The front and rear wheels both failed, due to aluminum spoke nipple heads popping off due to redox corrosion with the carbon rims. I rebuilt both wheels with brass spoke nipples. No carbon rim should ever be built with Al spoke nipples!
• The rear axle snapped while I was riding it. Not due to a crash or jumping, but simple wear. Axles are made of Al alloy instead of steel these days, they are no longer the lifetime parts they used to be but are now consumable/wear items.
• The crank bolt is made of Al instead of Steel, so the first time I replaced the bottom bracket bearings, when I put it back together the bolt head sheared off at half the recommended torque. So I had to replace the crank bolt. Why does anyone make a crank bolt out of anything but steel?
• The rear hub shell failed, the pawl pockets got distorted from "too much hill climbing" and Reynolds would not warranty them, so I replaced the Reynolds hubs with DT Swiss 350 hubs and rebuilt both wheels again.

With all this work, the bike is 10 years old and still runs like new. But it needed all that work. Modern bikes are lightweight and fast, but they are not as durable/reliable as they used to be.

 

[GoodisDumb]

Without knowing what the failure mode was, it's hard to say if it was the derailler or user error. Did they start with low batteries? The AXS derailleurs are more reliable in some ways because of the internal clutch/auto adjust when taking a hit.

 

[D60]

My SRAM Red circa '21 has been flawless on my road bike. I was skeptical, but I'm a believer.

I think it would be fantastic in the dirt, and my friends who run it on their mountain bikes love it. The concept makes a lot of sense -- no cables to stretch or housings to clog. It just "knows" where it is and shifts to the same spot every time.

I'd liken it to analog dial calipers vs digital. The latter has no rack and pinion to clog.

I think the battery is the vulnerable part in technical terrain. It's kind of large and I ride a few trails where I'm at risk of scraping the derailleur.

All that said, if I regularly did epic rides or remote bikepacking, e-shifting would make me nervous. Losing shifting even on a long road ride is less of a big deal, although the only problems I've had were user error failing to charge a battery.

 

[MRC01]

... I think the battery is the vulnerable part in technical terrain. It's kind of large and I ride a few trails where I'm at risk of scraping the derailleur. ...

Yep. Though my question is mainly about multi-day rides in remote areas. Even if E-shifting is perfectly functional and reliable, on these kinds of rides it creates whole new hassles around carrying extra batteries, where to charge them, etc. This is impacting a friend of mine, who is embarking on a 1 week bike-packing trip from Banff to Steamboat (half the tour divide).

 

[D60]

Yep. Though my question is mainly about multi-day rides in remote areas. Even if E-shifting is perfectly functional and reliable, on these kinds of rides it creates whole new hassles around carrying extra batteries, where to charge them, etc. This is impacting a friend of mine, who is embarking on a 1 week bike-packing trip from Banff to Steamboat (half the tour divide).

How many batteries do you really need, though? I don't know if long cage derailleurs and 1x's absurdly huge cog steps draw more than a road cassette?

I'd think one on the bike and three packed would provide a cushion for a week. They're small and light.

BUT YEAH, your friend should run cable shift. If you have to ask, then that's the answer.

 

[burbguy82]

I think the biggest issue with electronic shift, is people not using them. Electric motors are made to work, not sit there. Of course, manual shifting will always be more reliable, but if used regularly, will increase the life of the component. I do like manual shift better 100%

 

[853okg]

Yep. Though my question is mainly about multi-day rides in remote areas. Even if E-shifting is perfectly functional and reliable, on these kinds of rides it creates whole new hassles around carrying extra batteries, where to charge them, etc. This is impacting a friend of mine, who is embarking on a 1 week bike-packing trip from Banff to Steamboat (half the tour divide).

A week? If he used Shimano he could do it on a single charge no problem. SRAM gets you about, IIRC about 25 hours so charging it once for an hour is in order. But let’s face it if you’re going off grid and living like Matt Graham you should probably do away with as much modern technology as possible. These things are really reliable. People don’t check their charge (which is easily done on the bike) they don’t know how to reset after a crash. That’s the issue. If you want to worry about worst case scenarios I say get a Rohloff hub or ride a single speed. But don’t fear electronic shifting. Your fork is just as likely to break or your wheel can taco.

 

[MRC01]

A week? If he used Shimano he could do it on a single charge no problem. SRAM gets you about, IIRC about 25 hours so charging it once for an hour is in order. But let’s face it if you’re going off grid and living like Matt Graham you should probably do away with as much modern technology as possible. These things are really reliable. People don’t check their charge (which is easily done on the bike) they don’t know how to reset after a crash. That’s the issue. If you want to worry about worst case scenarios I say get a Rohloff hub or ride a single speed. But don’t fear electronic shifting. Your fork is just as likely to break or your wheel can taco.

Lachlan Morton reported depleting 2 batteries per day during the Tour Divide last year (link). He also brought spare spokes, which is a good thing because while his wheels held up fine, he ended up using a spoke to jerry-rig his derailleur after it failed.

 

[853okg]

So what? If you’re riding over 200 miles a day of incredibly mountainous terrain fully loaded with the kitchen sink you will need a spare battery IF you use SRAM (which, I would never do but you do what you want).
I’ve been a professional bicycle mechanic at the highest levels of the sport for over forty years. I’ve raced my bike almost a thousand times at the highest amateur level. I’ve ridden over four hundred miles in a day. I tell you this: most of what I see coming out of the bike industry is, for lack of a better word, bad. In my opinion, most new cycling technology takes more than it gives and is not worth it. Modern cyclists have an extremely warped idea of what is necessary.
Having said that electronic shifting is a breakthrough on the order of clipless pedals or indexed shifting. Neither of which is needed for a great bike ride but is nice. Is it as important as drugs? No. But it’s nothing to fear. Mechanical derailleurs will probably outlast acoustic bikes anyway.

 

[picklyrickly1073]

No issues with my Shimano Di2 or SRAM Eagle AXS, just charge the batteries and they will work in the worst conditions better and longer than mechanical