Electricity prices got you down? BlueGEN

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Originally Posted by CT8
Originally Posted by Papa Bear
I'm waiting for the single dwelling nuclear reactor

I am waiting for the Hydrogen revolution.


When I get my flying car, your hydrogen revolution will be next...
 
Originally Posted by turtlevette
How much noise does that thing make. I don't even like hearing the neighbors swimming pool pump.


No idea, maybe it's really quiet? Maybe it sounds like my furnace? Good question though, it was one of my first thoughts as well.
 
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by turtlevette
How much noise does that thing make. I don't even like hearing the neighbors swimming pool pump.


No idea, maybe it's really quiet? Maybe it sounds like my furnace? Good question though, it was one of my first thoughts as well.


They brag about how quiet it is. Since it's fuel cell, I would bet that it's very quiet. Certainly not as loud as an ICE. Now, swimming pool pump? Well...

Downloaded the brochure. Here you go: Noise level < 47 db

That's VERY quiet!

Our dishwasher is 46db and unless I am standing next to it, I can't hear it run.
 
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Originally Posted by Astro14
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by turtlevette
How much noise does that thing make. I don't even like hearing the neighbors swimming pool pump.


No idea, maybe it's really quiet? Maybe it sounds like my furnace? Good question though, it was one of my first thoughts as well.


They brag about how quiet it is. Since it's fuel cell, I would bet that it's very quiet. Certainly not as loud as an ICE. Now, swimming pool pump? Well...


I didn't realize a fuel cell made that much heat.
 
Originally Posted by Astro14
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by turtlevette
How much noise does that thing make. I don't even like hearing the neighbors swimming pool pump.


No idea, maybe it's really quiet? Maybe it sounds like my furnace? Good question though, it was one of my first thoughts as well.


They brag about how quiet it is. Since it's fuel cell, I would bet that it's very quiet. Certainly not as loud as an ICE. Now, swimming pool pump? Well...

Downloaded the brochure. Here you go: Noise level < 47 db

That's VERY quiet!

Our dishwasher is 46db and unless I am standing next to it, I can't hear it run.


That answers that question, so yeah, it is exceptionally quiet.
 
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by SirTanon
I was able to negotiate a monthly payment plan at an extremely low rate, which we can pay off at any time with zero fees. I saw savings within a few months.

For example - My August electricity bill used to be between $400 and $440. Between what I pay the power company, and what I pay each month toward the solar system, my last August "bill" came to about $215. Also, I can apply my solar upgrade costs (monthly charges) to offset my taxes, since it's an upgrade to my house.


Holy crap that's high! What's your per kWh rate there???

So, say the system was $20,000 (just pulling a number out of my posterior) and your monthly usage was 1200kWh and it provides 600kWh, cutting your bill in half. If it saves you $200/month, in 20 years, ignoring panel degradation, it will have saved you $48,000, putting you ahead by $28K.

My electricity (delivery is separate and is not directly tied to usage) is around $95/month currently for 750kWh. If a similarly priced system cut my usage in half, I'd save $50.00. That's $12K over 20 years, I'd still be in hole $8 grand on my initial investment.


Our rate isn't the problem. I have a fairly big house - a 2-story one - with one A/C compressor for each floor. When we hit summer heat here, the A/C is pretty much running all the time. We also have 2 refrigerators, 4 desktop computers, multiple laptops, etc.. everything is electric - we have no gas appliances here. Thus, we use a LOT of power. Almost our entire roof is covered with solar panels, so they produce quite a bit of power, thus the big difference.
 
Originally Posted by SirTanon
Our rate isn't the problem. I have a fairly big house - a 2-story one - with one A/C compressor for each floor. When we hit summer heat here, the A/C is pretty much running all the time. We also have 2 refrigerators, 4 desktop computers, multiple laptops, etc.. everything is electric - we have no gas appliances here. Thus, we use a LOT of power. Almost our entire roof is covered with solar panels, so they produce quite a bit of power, thus the big difference.


Obviously our summers aren't like yours but your numbers still surprise me. I heat with gas (and my water is heated with gas) but everything else is electric and my kids aren't small consumers, though we've made conservation efforts like LED bulbs, HE washer and an induction range. Electronic gizmos sound similar to yours including 2x X-boxes, large Bryston amp, receiver, another amp, several desktops, 4 laptops, 3x televisions, a whole other stereo system...etc. We only have the one fridge. I assume it's the AC that is the biggest difference, since we only run a window unit, and not all the time, as it isn't needed.

Keep this discussion in mind when you've got your first full year under your belt, I'm curious, as I'm sure others are, what the overall savings ends up being.
 
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by SirTanon
Our rate isn't the problem. I have a fairly big house - a 2-story one - with one A/C compressor for each floor. When we hit summer heat here, the A/C is pretty much running all the time. We also have 2 refrigerators, 4 desktop computers, multiple laptops, etc.. everything is electric - we have no gas appliances here. Thus, we use a LOT of power. Almost our entire roof is covered with solar panels, so they produce quite a bit of power, thus the big difference.


Obviously our summers aren't like yours but your numbers still surprise me. I heat with gas (and my water is heated with gas) but everything else is electric and my kids aren't small consumers, though we've made conservation efforts like LED bulbs, HE washer and an induction range. Electronic gizmos sound similar to yours including 2x X-boxes, large Bryston amp, receiver, another amp, several desktops, 4 laptops, 3x televisions, a whole other stereo system...etc. We only have the one fridge. I assume it's the AC that is the biggest difference, since we only run a window unit, and not all the time, as it isn't needed.

Keep this discussion in mind when you've got your first full year under your belt, I'm curious, as I'm sure others are, what the overall savings ends up being.


We've had the solar panels installed for about a year and a half now. The savings are as posted above.

As far as why the costs are so high - It is, without a doubt, the A/C system. We have two 1.5 ton (I think, one might be more) compressors outside, and as I mentioned, during summer, they are on much of the time. In winter, they pretty much never run, which is why the electricty costs in winter are so much less. Even before we had solar, our winter electricity bill was only about $80-90 for one month.
 
Originally Posted by SirTanon
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by SirTanon
Our rate isn't the problem. I have a fairly big house - a 2-story one - with one A/C compressor for each floor. When we hit summer heat here, the A/C is pretty much running all the time. We also have 2 refrigerators, 4 desktop computers, multiple laptops, etc.. everything is electric - we have no gas appliances here. Thus, we use a LOT of power. Almost our entire roof is covered with solar panels, so they produce quite a bit of power, thus the big difference.


Obviously our summers aren't like yours but your numbers still surprise me. I heat with gas (and my water is heated with gas) but everything else is electric and my kids aren't small consumers, though we've made conservation efforts like LED bulbs, HE washer and an induction range. Electronic gizmos sound similar to yours including 2x X-boxes, large Bryston amp, receiver, another amp, several desktops, 4 laptops, 3x televisions, a whole other stereo system...etc. We only have the one fridge. I assume it's the AC that is the biggest difference, since we only run a window unit, and not all the time, as it isn't needed.

Keep this discussion in mind when you've got your first full year under your belt, I'm curious, as I'm sure others are, what the overall savings ends up being.


We've had the solar panels installed for about a year and a half now. The savings are as posted above.

As far as why the costs are so high - It is, without a doubt, the A/C system. We have two 1.5 ton (I think, one might be more) compressors outside, and as I mentioned, during summer, they are on much of the time. In winter, they pretty much never run, which is why the electricty costs in winter are so much less. Even before we had solar, our winter electricity bill was only about $80-90 for one month.



Interesting, so your winter consumption, assuming our per kWh rate is similar, is more in-line with mine. So then my savings I calculated earlier are off significantly. Do you get money back in the winter months or is the lower sunlight exposure during that period enough to keep you with a bill?
 
Around here the problem is the fixed fees they charge, not the electric rate.

The connection fees have tripled in about a 6-7 year timeframe and the utilities still want to get 2.5x above even that amount eventually for fixed fees.

Only way to avoid the nonsense would be to disconnect the electricity.

If I had natural gas Cogen with solar I could pull the plug and save money.
 
Originally Posted by Rmay635703
Around here the problem is the fixed fees they charge, not the electric rate.

The connection fees have tripled in about a 6-7 year timeframe and the utilities still want to get 2.5x above even that amount eventually for fixed fees.

Only way to avoid the nonsense would be to disconnect the electricity.

If I had natural gas Cogen with solar I could pull the plug and save money.


We have a similar issue, however solar isn't really viable without subsidy at its present cost. Our delivery charge has a "base" charge as part of it, and then above that, somewhat relative to usage, it will increase. Customers who are more remote get hit much harder with this fee than those living in residential areas. People can have winter bills of several thousand a month.
 
Our electricity is cheap here pretty much between 10 and 12 cents a kilowatt hour depending on the demand usage sometimes as low as 8.
That's actual payment including whatever type of fees there may be.

I always thought solar was appealing but it would take a long time to recoup the cost and I never realized and suspect others as well that solar panels have a lifespan of 15 years to possibly 20.
They can start degrading after 12 years from what I understand.

Throw in the fact that a lot of people Finance these and the time to recoup the cost is even longer... If you don't Finance the panels then you have to take into account possible money lost on better Investments.

Just thoughts that I've been on my mind I'm not in any way saying it's a bad thing more so for some of the outrageous cost that I see people pay for their electricity.
 
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Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by SirTanon
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by SirTanon
Our rate isn't the problem. I have a fairly big house - a 2-story one - with one A/C compressor for each floor. When we hit summer heat here, the A/C is pretty much running all the time. We also have 2 refrigerators, 4 desktop computers, multiple laptops, etc.. everything is electric - we have no gas appliances here. Thus, we use a LOT of power. Almost our entire roof is covered with solar panels, so they produce quite a bit of power, thus the big difference.


Obviously our summers aren't like yours but your numbers still surprise me. I heat with gas (and my water is heated with gas) but everything else is electric and my kids aren't small consumers, though we've made conservation efforts like LED bulbs, HE washer and an induction range. Electronic gizmos sound similar to yours including 2x X-boxes, large Bryston amp, receiver, another amp, several desktops, 4 laptops, 3x televisions, a whole other stereo system...etc. We only have the one fridge. I assume it's the AC that is the biggest difference, since we only run a window unit, and not all the time, as it isn't needed.

Keep this discussion in mind when you've got your first full year under your belt, I'm curious, as I'm sure others are, what the overall savings ends up being.


We've had the solar panels installed for about a year and a half now. The savings are as posted above.

As far as why the costs are so high - It is, without a doubt, the A/C system. We have two 1.5 ton (I think, one might be more) compressors outside, and as I mentioned, during summer, they are on much of the time. In winter, they pretty much never run, which is why the electricty costs in winter are so much less. Even before we had solar, our winter electricity bill was only about $80-90 for one month.



Interesting, so your winter consumption, assuming our per kWh rate is similar, is more in-line with mine. So then my savings I calculated earlier are off significantly. Do you get money back in the winter months or is the lower sunlight exposure during that period enough to keep you with a bill?


It's a net-metering agreement, so during the months we put more power on the grid than we use, we get a credit from the power company (APS is the company we have), and then during months when we'd have to pay because we used more than we put on, the credit gets applied to what we'd owe.

Interestingly enough, as Rmay pointed out, during the cooler months, about 50-75% of our bill is fees and taxes, not the actual power usage. They have gotten really bad about it. Our last $90 bill had a "delivery charge" or something like that over $30. Not power costs per kWh, but a delivery fee. Ugh.
 
So, cogen ceramic fuel cell? If you put it somewhere that needs heat all the time with net metering, it will work if the fuel cell is not expensive. You are going to use the heat anyways and you are going to use the electricity anyways.

The only question would be how long it will last and how much it cost. The rest you can use financing and power purchase agreement to fix it (like how they deal with solar and wind generation volatility). I can see our resident anti-solar guys complaining about it destabilizing the grid already.

Last time I check ceramic fuel cell is not cheap, maybe they should have put a small turbo plus alternator in there and make it cheaper instead?
 
Originally Posted by SirTanon
It's a net-metering agreement, so during the months we put more power on the grid than we use, we get a credit from the power company (APS is the company we have), and then during months when we'd have to pay because we used more than we put on, the credit gets applied to what we'd owe.

Interestingly enough, as Rmay pointed out, during the cooler months, about 50-75% of our bill is fees and taxes, not the actual power usage. They have gotten really bad about it. Our last $90 bill had a "delivery charge" or something like that over $30. Not power costs per kWh, but a delivery fee. Ugh.


Yeah, as I noted, we have a delivery charge as well.

So, since you've actually owned it more than a year, you know how much, over the course of a year, it has saved you I assume. Is it going to result in a profit after paying off the system?
 
Originally Posted by PandaBear
So, cogen ceramic fuel cell? If you put it somewhere that needs heat all the time with net metering, it will work if the fuel cell is not expensive. You are going to use the heat anyways and you are going to use the electricity anyways.

The only question would be how long it will last and how much it cost. The rest you can use financing and power purchase agreement to fix it (like how they deal with solar and wind generation volatility). I can see our resident anti-solar guys complaining about it destabilizing the grid already.

Last time I check ceramic fuel cell is not cheap, maybe they should have put a small turbo plus alternator in there and make it cheaper instead?


Given its ability generate all the time, I wouldn't expecting crowing of instability like intermittent sources.

Worth giving thought too however is that unlike solar where production occurs during the day when you aren't there usually, with the ability for the fuel cell to produce all the time, you will have multiple periods of excess. One that mirrors solar, save the morning ramp-up and evening ramp-down, which won't exist, but then at night when everything is off these could be leveraged to charge electric cars; satisfying local demand that would otherwise be on the grid.

It's an interesting development anyways, even if it doesn't get much traction. And really, it would only make sense where electricity prices have jumped the shark.
 
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