I agree with Trav here, just use what the manufacturer specifies rather than try to be more clever than the engineers...
Edge 0w-20 in bmw 330 m54 I6?
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then you too can benefit from running a 0W-20 oil in the winter in your BMW or for any make for that matter.
Not in my car.
then you too can benefit from running a 0W-20 oil in the winter in your BMW or for any make for that matter.
Not in my car.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
And yes, before the advent of high VI 0W-30 and 0W-40 oils BMW did recommend 5W-20 oils for cold weather running as did other German OEMs such as Porsche and Audi.
Okay tell the truth what year was that? 1973?
If you want to mess around with 20w in your old BMW thats your business but advocating that others do it in expensive newer machines borders on lunacy.
The OM for my old BMW recommends 5W-20 for very cold temperature ranges.
The OM for Caterham's probably does as well, so 5W-20 was among the grades BMW recommended more than two decades later than 1973.
Quote:
And yes, before the advent of high VI 0W-30 and 0W-40 oils BMW did recommend 5W-20 oils for cold weather running as did other German OEMs such as Porsche and Audi.
Okay tell the truth what year was that? 1973?
If you want to mess around with 20w in your old BMW thats your business but advocating that others do it in expensive newer machines borders on lunacy.
The OM for my old BMW recommends 5W-20 for very cold temperature ranges.
The OM for Caterham's probably does as well, so 5W-20 was among the grades BMW recommended more than two decades later than 1973.
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
just use what the manufacturer specifies rather than try to be more clever than the engineers...
I don't disagree with you and if one has little interest (or understanding) of motor oil what choice does one have?
But if one has some understanding of the subject, I would suggest that the manufacturers oil pressure test spec's trumps the recommended oil grades, at least in terms of viscosity choice.
just use what the manufacturer specifies rather than try to be more clever than the engineers...
I don't disagree with you and if one has little interest (or understanding) of motor oil what choice does one have?
But if one has some understanding of the subject, I would suggest that the manufacturers oil pressure test spec's trumps the recommended oil grades, at least in terms of viscosity choice.
Okay its not for lack of understanding i understand perfectly well the point you are trying to make but its flawed.
Start out in the morning drive around a bit with the 20w in there and everything is fine.
Later hit the autobahn and really give it pedal and all of a sudden everything is not okay, oil temp high, pressure dropping, what then?
Stop and change the oil at the next rest area?
There has to be a cushion, you cant run the oil on the ragged edge of breakdown.
5w30 and 0w40 is not "thick oil" by any standard. People in Europe drive fast thats all there is to it and something akin to WD40 in a 5ltr jug isn't going to cut it.
The guy in Italy is in a warm climate, Holland isn't very cold even in winter, how is anyone getting any benefit at all from a 20w oil?
New life 0w40 and ESP 5w30 is recommended for almost every engine sold in Europe. Their engines have no issues whatsoever with longevity, so why bother with the silly games.
20w maybe fine for crawling around Bouctouche in winter at a snails pace but not for engines that see a lot of heavy throttle in warm weather.
Start out in the morning drive around a bit with the 20w in there and everything is fine.
Later hit the autobahn and really give it pedal and all of a sudden everything is not okay, oil temp high, pressure dropping, what then?
Stop and change the oil at the next rest area?
There has to be a cushion, you cant run the oil on the ragged edge of breakdown.
5w30 and 0w40 is not "thick oil" by any standard. People in Europe drive fast thats all there is to it and something akin to WD40 in a 5ltr jug isn't going to cut it.
The guy in Italy is in a warm climate, Holland isn't very cold even in winter, how is anyone getting any benefit at all from a 20w oil?
New life 0w40 and ESP 5w30 is recommended for almost every engine sold in Europe. Their engines have no issues whatsoever with longevity, so why bother with the silly games.
20w maybe fine for crawling around Bouctouche in winter at a snails pace but not for engines that see a lot of heavy throttle in warm weather.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Okay tell the truth what year was that? 1973?
My Audi did, and it was a 1991, but it only called for API specifications at the time. And no, I did not try 5w-20 in it, either. It only got 5w-30, 10w-30, 0w-40, 5w-40, or 15w-40, with the first two in winter only.
If I did only short trips, I would have had no problems with a 5w-20. I didn't, though, and it burned enough oil when 5w-30 was in it as it was.
To the other posters, we have to remember that CATERHAM, and many others here, understand why BMW and the other German makes specified thicker oils at the outset and then moved onto their own proprietary specifications. They were making specifications based upon worst case scenarios (extended periods at high speeds), and started moving onto drastically extended OCIs. The basic API/ILSAC oils of the time were certainly not up to oil changes of over 20,000 km in high stress conditions.
We also have to recognize that the German manufacturers don't have wildly swinging oil recommendations across various countries, at least not to the degree we observe when we compare North American and Asian vehicles sold in North America versus those sold in Australia, for instance.
We do have to recognize, however, that sedate driving with a 3,000 mile OCI (just to pin down a conservative number) is a lot different than high speed driving over the recommended OCI of a modern German car. There's nothing magical about the German oil specifications. What issues do the specifications address? Primarily, they're concerned about a minimum HTHS and a long drain interval, with a few other things tossed in.
Personally, I'd be reluctant to deviate, particularly under warranty, but that doesn't mean it cannot be done safely.
Okay tell the truth what year was that? 1973?
My Audi did, and it was a 1991, but it only called for API specifications at the time. And no, I did not try 5w-20 in it, either. It only got 5w-30, 10w-30, 0w-40, 5w-40, or 15w-40, with the first two in winter only.
If I did only short trips, I would have had no problems with a 5w-20. I didn't, though, and it burned enough oil when 5w-30 was in it as it was.
To the other posters, we have to remember that CATERHAM, and many others here, understand why BMW and the other German makes specified thicker oils at the outset and then moved onto their own proprietary specifications. They were making specifications based upon worst case scenarios (extended periods at high speeds), and started moving onto drastically extended OCIs. The basic API/ILSAC oils of the time were certainly not up to oil changes of over 20,000 km in high stress conditions.
We also have to recognize that the German manufacturers don't have wildly swinging oil recommendations across various countries, at least not to the degree we observe when we compare North American and Asian vehicles sold in North America versus those sold in Australia, for instance.
We do have to recognize, however, that sedate driving with a 3,000 mile OCI (just to pin down a conservative number) is a lot different than high speed driving over the recommended OCI of a modern German car. There's nothing magical about the German oil specifications. What issues do the specifications address? Primarily, they're concerned about a minimum HTHS and a long drain interval, with a few other things tossed in.
Personally, I'd be reluctant to deviate, particularly under warranty, but that doesn't mean it cannot be done safely.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Okay its not for lack of understanding i understand perfectly well the point you are trying to make but its flawed.
Start out in the morning drive around a bit with the 20w in there and everything is fine.
Later hit the autobahn and really give it pedal and all of a sudden everything is not okay, oil temp high, pressure dropping, what then?
Well unfortunately, the last time I checked we don't have the autobahn in NA, but at reasonably high speeds up to 100 mph which is still loafing in a BMW I can't get the oil temp's over 85C when the ambient temp's are below 0C. In the winter 90% of the time I'm lucky to see 75C oil temp's before I shut her down on a typical trip.
The point is the situation is very easy to monitor, oil temp's don't soar with occational WOT blasts given the opportunity.
And even if you still have the 0W-20 oil in the sump come summer it's still not a problem. If oil temp's get above 90C or more importantly your OP is getting close to the minimum limit you're comfortable with, simply avoid WOT until you get the oil changed or thickened up.
Listen, if one's not comfortable monitoring oil temp's and oil pressures or more importantly you don't find it an enjoyable part of your driving experience then running a 0W-20 oil may not be for you. You could go with a high VI light 0W-30 instead and reap most of the cold start and running benefit. Oh, right there isn't one. Well fortunately you can make one here:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2562326&page=1
Okay its not for lack of understanding i understand perfectly well the point you are trying to make but its flawed.
Start out in the morning drive around a bit with the 20w in there and everything is fine.
Later hit the autobahn and really give it pedal and all of a sudden everything is not okay, oil temp high, pressure dropping, what then?
Well unfortunately, the last time I checked we don't have the autobahn in NA, but at reasonably high speeds up to 100 mph which is still loafing in a BMW I can't get the oil temp's over 85C when the ambient temp's are below 0C. In the winter 90% of the time I'm lucky to see 75C oil temp's before I shut her down on a typical trip.
The point is the situation is very easy to monitor, oil temp's don't soar with occational WOT blasts given the opportunity.
And even if you still have the 0W-20 oil in the sump come summer it's still not a problem. If oil temp's get above 90C or more importantly your OP is getting close to the minimum limit you're comfortable with, simply avoid WOT until you get the oil changed or thickened up.
Listen, if one's not comfortable monitoring oil temp's and oil pressures or more importantly you don't find it an enjoyable part of your driving experience then running a 0W-20 oil may not be for you. You could go with a high VI light 0W-30 instead and reap most of the cold start and running benefit. Oh, right there isn't one. Well fortunately you can make one here:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2562326&page=1
My 2 pennies is this. If you have a oil pressure/temp gauge, a sense of adventure, the money and time to go beyond the manufactures recommendation go ahead. But you have to understand you may end up spinning a bearing due to a lubrication failure. This is not likely going to happen but it could. If you do not want or do not have the resources to use what the factory does not recommended use what the factory recommends and you will have a minimal chance of failure.
Originally Posted By: dave1251
If you have a oil pressure/temp gauge, a sense of adventure, the money and time to go beyond the manufactures recommendation go ahead. But you have to understand you may end up spinning a bearing due to a lubrication failure. This is not likely going to happen but it could. If you do not want or do not have the resources to use what the factory does not recommended use what the factory recommends and you will have a minimal chance of failure.
First the risk of spinning a bearing is not generally associated with an oil being too thin. The risk of running an oil too thin is bearing wiping.
If you have OP/OT gauges and become totally familiar with the OP/OT characteristics of your engine and abide by the minimum OP test spec's provided by the manufacturer (which in themselves have a large safety margin) then the risk of bearing wiping is virtually non-existant.
So what is a more precise practise, following the oil grade recommendations of the OEM or the actually test OP spec's, the later of which are not oil temperature dependant?
I say the later.
If you have a oil pressure/temp gauge, a sense of adventure, the money and time to go beyond the manufactures recommendation go ahead. But you have to understand you may end up spinning a bearing due to a lubrication failure. This is not likely going to happen but it could. If you do not want or do not have the resources to use what the factory does not recommended use what the factory recommends and you will have a minimal chance of failure.
First the risk of spinning a bearing is not generally associated with an oil being too thin. The risk of running an oil too thin is bearing wiping.
If you have OP/OT gauges and become totally familiar with the OP/OT characteristics of your engine and abide by the minimum OP test spec's provided by the manufacturer (which in themselves have a large safety margin) then the risk of bearing wiping is virtually non-existant.
So what is a more precise practise, following the oil grade recommendations of the OEM or the actually test OP spec's, the later of which are not oil temperature dependant?
I say the later.
CATERHAM by the same token the OP can use straight 40 grade and the engine would be fine especially if you let the oil circulate enough before flogging the gas pedal. But you do not see me making that recommendation.
One thing we probably can agree upon is that 5-7K miles is a reasonable OCI in this instance (especially considering the response from BMW Canada)...
Ergo, a smart thing to do would be to pick a non-Mobil 1 (as per the OP's choice, not mine) synthetic 5W-30 (on sale if possible) and whirl away!
Cheers!
Ergo, a smart thing to do would be to pick a non-Mobil 1 (as per the OP's choice, not mine) synthetic 5W-30 (on sale if possible) and whirl away!
Cheers!
Originally Posted By: dave1251
CATERHAM by the same token the OP can use straight 40 grade and the engine would be fine especially if you let the oil circulate enough before flogging the gas pedal. But you do not see me making that recommendation.
The advantage of having an oil pressure gauge and why I recommend it so much to by fellow oil nerds is that it is a viscometer. What can be more fun than knowing what your operational viscosity is every moment your engine is running?
Not only does it tell you when your oil is getting too thin (in reality much more difficult than you know) but also when it is too thick.
The problem with a straight 40wt oil is that you would not likely be able to start the engine without the risk of engine damage at temp's below freezing.
Even in the summer, while starting would not be a problem, if you "let the oil circulate" for while as you suggest before "flogging the gas pedal" still risks cavitation engine damage. Why? Because the oil is massively heavier than optimum and a couple of minutes of running time as you aluded to, is no where near long enough to significantly thin out the oil to allow the use of maximum rev's risk free.
That could take up to 20 minutes of running time before maximum rev's could be used safely and even then the oil pump would still likely be in by-pass mode.
That's one reason why the later M series BMW's for which the 10W-60 is spec'd have a variable red line on start-up, to avoid the serious risk of engine damage before the very heavy oil has thinned out sufficiently. Of course a straight 40wt being considerably heavier on start-up compounds the problem.
If you have an OP gauge you can use it as your own variable red line (which is what I do) to limit maximum rev's during warm up to the oil pump by-pass point. Following that protocol with a straight 40wt oil you'll be short shifting at 2,000 rpm for the first ten minutes of running time which most would not have the patience for. Even with a high VI 40wt like M1 0W-40, you still can't use maximum rev's without the oil pump going into py-pass until oil temp's have reached about 85C.
And as I've mentioned before, even with a light 0W-20 one still needs 70C oil temp's to use maximum rev's and still avoid by-pass at maximum rev's. At 85C your OP will still be well above the test OP spec'. In all likelyhood I could likely run a 0W-20 year round in my Bimmer but I'm not trying to explore what the minimum viscosity I can run in my car is. I just don't what to run an oil that is way heavier than necessary when I don't have to. And my OP gauge tells me that with ask I've explained zero risk of running an oil too light.
CATERHAM by the same token the OP can use straight 40 grade and the engine would be fine especially if you let the oil circulate enough before flogging the gas pedal. But you do not see me making that recommendation.
The advantage of having an oil pressure gauge and why I recommend it so much to by fellow oil nerds is that it is a viscometer. What can be more fun than knowing what your operational viscosity is every moment your engine is running?
Not only does it tell you when your oil is getting too thin (in reality much more difficult than you know) but also when it is too thick.
The problem with a straight 40wt oil is that you would not likely be able to start the engine without the risk of engine damage at temp's below freezing.
Even in the summer, while starting would not be a problem, if you "let the oil circulate" for while as you suggest before "flogging the gas pedal" still risks cavitation engine damage. Why? Because the oil is massively heavier than optimum and a couple of minutes of running time as you aluded to, is no where near long enough to significantly thin out the oil to allow the use of maximum rev's risk free.
That could take up to 20 minutes of running time before maximum rev's could be used safely and even then the oil pump would still likely be in by-pass mode.
That's one reason why the later M series BMW's for which the 10W-60 is spec'd have a variable red line on start-up, to avoid the serious risk of engine damage before the very heavy oil has thinned out sufficiently. Of course a straight 40wt being considerably heavier on start-up compounds the problem.
If you have an OP gauge you can use it as your own variable red line (which is what I do) to limit maximum rev's during warm up to the oil pump by-pass point. Following that protocol with a straight 40wt oil you'll be short shifting at 2,000 rpm for the first ten minutes of running time which most would not have the patience for. Even with a high VI 40wt like M1 0W-40, you still can't use maximum rev's without the oil pump going into py-pass until oil temp's have reached about 85C.
And as I've mentioned before, even with a light 0W-20 one still needs 70C oil temp's to use maximum rev's and still avoid by-pass at maximum rev's. At 85C your OP will still be well above the test OP spec'. In all likelyhood I could likely run a 0W-20 year round in my Bimmer but I'm not trying to explore what the minimum viscosity I can run in my car is. I just don't what to run an oil that is way heavier than necessary when I don't have to. And my OP gauge tells me that with ask I've explained zero risk of running an oil too light.
No straight 40wt starts at temps below freezing without risking engine damage is a fantasy. There are decades of vehicles that were started at, say 31 degrees f with no damage using straight 40wt. Most rusted out before the motors gave out, as one can well imagine.
Unless you believe that every time you start your engine you are, in fact, risking some kind of damage, however unlikely. There will always be that last time something is used.
"Massively" heavier than optimum is just an opinion, and much like the terminal end of the alimentary canal, everyone has one of those as well... (except when they have no opinion)
Cheers!
p.s. Not trying to be offensive, Mr. C
Unless you believe that every time you start your engine you are, in fact, risking some kind of damage, however unlikely. There will always be that last time something is used.
"Massively" heavier than optimum is just an opinion, and much like the terminal end of the alimentary canal, everyone has one of those as well... (except when they have no opinion)
Cheers!
p.s. Not trying to be offensive, Mr. C
No offence Norm_Olt.
A 15W-40 is is not recommended in my BMW manual at temp's below 20F. It's silly and foolish to suggest that no damage will occur using a straight 40wt oil at temp's below freezing. No auto manufacturer has EVER recommended such a practice.
I'm old enough to have witnessed plenty of engine damage with cars and motorcycles started cold and driven in anger at temp's well above freezing with straight 40wt and 50wt.
I've also witnessed cavitation damage on heavy oil 20W-50 synthetic oil on a cold 10C day at the track.
So "massively heavier than optimum" is not just my opinion.
It also used to be a problem when Ferrari and Lamborghini used to spec' the 10W-60. Just ask Ali Haas how many Ferrari owners he knows who broke their engines due to reving a cold engine even at room temp's with heavy oil. A light high VI 0W/5W-40 has virtually eliminated the problem.
A 15W-40 is is not recommended in my BMW manual at temp's below 20F. It's silly and foolish to suggest that no damage will occur using a straight 40wt oil at temp's below freezing. No auto manufacturer has EVER recommended such a practice.
I'm old enough to have witnessed plenty of engine damage with cars and motorcycles started cold and driven in anger at temp's well above freezing with straight 40wt and 50wt.
I've also witnessed cavitation damage on heavy oil 20W-50 synthetic oil on a cold 10C day at the track.
So "massively heavier than optimum" is not just my opinion.
It also used to be a problem when Ferrari and Lamborghini used to spec' the 10W-60. Just ask Ali Haas how many Ferrari owners he knows who broke their engines due to reving a cold engine even at room temp's with heavy oil. A light high VI 0W/5W-40 has virtually eliminated the problem.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
That's one reason why the later M series BMW's for which the 10W-60 is spec'd have a variable red line on start-up, to avoid the serious risk of engine damage before the very heavy oil has thinned out sufficiently.
Honda's VTEC in the S2000 is similar to this concept. The engine could not rev above 6000 RPM when the engine oil was not warm enough after driving for only 4-5 minutes. I tried it once before, the fuel was cup off when I tried to rev pass 6000 after few minutes of starting the car in the morning.
That's one reason why the later M series BMW's for which the 10W-60 is spec'd have a variable red line on start-up, to avoid the serious risk of engine damage before the very heavy oil has thinned out sufficiently.
Honda's VTEC in the S2000 is similar to this concept. The engine could not rev above 6000 RPM when the engine oil was not warm enough after driving for only 4-5 minutes. I tried it once before, the fuel was cup off when I tried to rev pass 6000 after few minutes of starting the car in the morning.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
It also used to be a problem when Ferrari and Lamborghini used to spec' the 10W-60. Just ask Ali Haas how many Ferrari owners he knows who broke their engines due to reving a cold engine even at room temp's with heavy oil. A light high VI 0W/5W-40 has virtually eliminated the problem.
And that would be why, even in those cases of thicker oils, they didn't specify a straight grade in the first place. They're not "hobbled" by CAFE, yet that doesn't mean a straight 40 or 50 is ideal, either.
It also used to be a problem when Ferrari and Lamborghini used to spec' the 10W-60. Just ask Ali Haas how many Ferrari owners he knows who broke their engines due to reving a cold engine even at room temp's with heavy oil. A light high VI 0W/5W-40 has virtually eliminated the problem.
And that would be why, even in those cases of thicker oils, they didn't specify a straight grade in the first place. They're not "hobbled" by CAFE, yet that doesn't mean a straight 40 or 50 is ideal, either.
Originally Posted By: KevinV
Postings like Caterham's are what make me read BITOG in my free time. He continues to teach me things I wanted to know. He also tends to answer both sides of a question. Thanks CATERHAM !
Thanks KevinV.
Postings like Caterham's are what make me read BITOG in my free time. He continues to teach me things I wanted to know. He also tends to answer both sides of a question. Thanks CATERHAM !
Thanks KevinV.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
That's one reason why the later M series BMW's for which the 10W-60 is spec'd have a variable red line on start-up, to avoid the serious risk of engine damage before the very heavy oil has thinned out sufficiently.
Honda's VTEC in the S2000 is similar to this concept. The engine could not rev above 6000 RPM when the engine oil was not warm enough after driving for only 4-5 minutes. I tried it once before, the fuel was cup off when I tried to rev pass 6000 after few minutes of starting the car in the morning.
And that's only with a 10W-30 oil!
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
That's one reason why the later M series BMW's for which the 10W-60 is spec'd have a variable red line on start-up, to avoid the serious risk of engine damage before the very heavy oil has thinned out sufficiently.
Honda's VTEC in the S2000 is similar to this concept. The engine could not rev above 6000 RPM when the engine oil was not warm enough after driving for only 4-5 minutes. I tried it once before, the fuel was cup off when I tried to rev pass 6000 after few minutes of starting the car in the morning.
And that's only with a 10W-30 oil!
Please note that "freezing" is < or = to 32 degrees f &/or 0 degrees c.
So, 20 degrees f is 12 below freezing, eh?
"Started cold and driven in anger..." Well, I don't really know what to say about those conditions, I guess it takes all kinds.
Nothing has yet to have been proven to be totally idiot-proof, even a hammer!
Cheers!
So, 20 degrees f is 12 below freezing, eh?
"Started cold and driven in anger..." Well, I don't really know what to say about those conditions, I guess it takes all kinds.
Nothing has yet to have been proven to be totally idiot-proof, even a hammer!
Cheers!
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