Ecore with an Issue

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: SWHeat
What Gary said. Flow dynamics seal the felt to the media...even IF it were not bonded at all and floating in space above the media.


But how could that be if Gary always claims that there is hardy any significant PSID across a filter's media?

Seeing how flimsy the glue job was on the photos above, I'd be leery of using a filter like that. Pressure is going to cause the oil to flow through any unsealed gaps before it goes down a more restrictive path. If there are unglued gaps on the end caps there will always be some oil getting through them.


Go buy one and cut it open.

You'll see that the ends are support against the element by the can and the valve.

And all the ones (more than 1 and I've posted MANY photos of them HERE for all to see) NONE OF THEM HAD HOLES OR END CAPS COMING OFF. All of them REQUIRED some force to take off the end caps.

Also, in a few years ALL filters will be made like this or cartridge filters since they are looking for ways to make them more "green".

What will you guys do then?

 

[SuperBusa]

Not every filter coming off the assembly line will be perfect - we all know or should realize that.

It's possible this one was defective in some way, and that combined with hard use just couldn't cut it and showed signs of failure. It's probably a similar situation with the low end FRAMs (or any other filter) that have infrequent failures.

The design might be fine, but if the manufacturing quality isn't good, or the filter is stressed beyond it's design, then you're gonna see failures.

 

[SilverC6]

It's just a filter...nothing else.

Even with the failure, it didn't cause catastrophic failure of the engine.

It did it's job.

That's why Frams and E-cores are okay.

It's like everything else in life. Buy the Michelins or save a buck and get the Cooper tires. It's a choice.

 

[chevrofreak]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Also, if the bypass valve doesn't work very well or is set too high, and the filter gets loaded up too much (sludge engine) to cause a big PSID across the media, it could very well collapse and tear open at any weak point like seen in the photos. As others have said, this is probably what happened to this particular filter.


I'd rather it tear open and my engine get oil than seize up because no oil was flowing. Some engine damage is better than total engine damage.

 

[TurboLuver]

I must admit that after I got over the initial surprise my first thought was that hole was intentional, I just can't think of any process that would cause that, but after reading these post's I am leaning toward a weak spot in the media theory. The pleats in that area are fixed in that position and could have stressed that area creating a weak spot? add to that poor maintenance and harsh driving conditions?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SuperBusa
Originally Posted By: SWHeat

Well then buy your better filter and quit bashing a filter that works just fine for its intended purpose, at a good price point, with improved flow (due to its open cage design, vs your steel tube with small holes).

If you were to have a intelligent beef with their design it would be with the combo anti-drainback/relief valve.


Yeah, the center cage obviously looks like it would flow well, but filters with spiral wound steel center cores with many little holes will flow just fine. The engineers size and put enough holes in them to ensure it's not a flow choke point.

One thing that could be bad about the very open center "cage" design is if the media is not very stiff and self supporting that the center cage might not allow enough localized support. You can see in the OP's photos that the media where the hole is was collapsing into the open space in the center cage. A steel center core design wouldn't allow this to happen.

Also, if the bypass valve doesn't work very well or is set too high, and the filter gets loaded up too much (sludge engine) to cause a big PSID across the media, it could very well collapse and tear open at any weak point like seen in the photos. As others have said, this is probably what happened to this particular filter.


All great points!

Others include:

-The holes down the spiralled steel centre on a traditional filter FAR outnumber the FEED holes in the TOP of the filter anyways; there is a lot more "flow area" through the centre tube than through the top of the filter.

-The media is "structural" in this design. While the media is wrapped around the centre cage, the rigidity of the outside folds of the media, where it is away from the centre cage is compromised when all that it is holding it is felt. Not that this is an issue in a reasonable usage cycle, but I could see this being a contributor for the media collapsing under high flow and an overly viscous fluid or an overly-contaminated filter, and this builds on the "media through the cage" breakage theory, since there are larger gaps for the media, and it is not supported on the ends, I could readily see scenarios where the media could buckle or rupture. Again, NOT typical scenarios but possible.

This harks back to the Cummins issue with FRAM filters. While in the majority of applications a FRAM filter is just fine, under the high flow with a heavy oil in the Cummins diesel application, these filters were collapsing and coming apart causing engine failure.

I imagine this is a very cost-effective filter design that performs well under the vast majority of situations where it is used. But Champ still produces their heavier duty style filters as well for companies like K&N, Mobil....etc.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: ekpolk
My theory is this: First, look at the paper end caps. They are so thin that they failed to stabilize the filter pleats in position. With the parting of those pleats, and nothing but a skimpy plastic frame behind to support, it was easy for oil pressure to blow a hole through a weak spot. I seriously doubt this would have happened with a Champ Labs design, a Puro, NAPA, Amsoil, etc.




They are NOT paper (or cardboard). They are felt/filter media mix.

Thicker than the media for the filter.

The "skimpy plastic" cage is very strong nylon. (send me your address and I'll send you one and you can crush it with your hand for me)

Plenty of support for the element.

SO the oil pressure is going to blow a hole with the media in a nice round shape?

Instead of a tear or rip?

Sorry, this filter had something poke a hole in it IMO. Not the oil pressure. Something foreign to a filter.

Take care, Bill


Bill, I have to disagree. First, OK, whatever the endcaps are, they are NOT sufficient to keep the pleats rigidly in place. In the original picture, you can see the "wavy" shape, and see how the pleats pulled and spread, because they did not have anything holding them firmly in place.

The rupture in the media could be a "object puncture", but I don't think we can rule out pressure just blowing through a weak spot. Notice how it just happened to occur where the pleats had been permitted to spread apart.

Which brings me to the next thing. The Ecore nylon cage may be rigid, but it does NOT consistently back the whole element as a metal tube with perforations does. With the cage, there is only direct support where there is a nylon spar or rib. In an area with no "cage coverage" pressure can push on through, without any stabilizing force from behind to stop it.

I see Ecore as being much like Fram. Perhaps just good enough, but when I can get an obviously stronger product for about the same price, why bother with Ecore?

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: SilverC6
. . .
That's why Frams and E-cores are okay.

It's like everything else in life. Buy the Michelins or save a buck and get the Cooper tires. It's a choice.


Sure, they're "OK" -- usually. But again, why bother?

Bringing me to your Michelin-Cooper analogy. It would be serviceable, except for the ranges involved. You might save a couple hundred bucks getting a set of Coopers. You might save a buck or two (if that) getting a full-quality filter instead of a Fram or Ecore. I'll take the better ones, thanks (every time).

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: SWHeat
. . .
Well then buy your better filter and quit bashing a filter that works just fine for its intended purpose, at a good price point, with improved flow (due to its open cage design, vs your steel tube with small holes).

I must disagree. The price point is effectively the same as for the better-built filters. And the OP's filter obviously did NOT work as intended. It failed dramatically, opening a direct path for a continuous flow of unfiltered oil to run directly into the engine.

Originally Posted By: SWHeat
If you were to have a intelligent beef with their design it would be with the combo anti-drainback/relief valve.

Yep, that would be an issue too.

Originally Posted By: SWHeat
Yet you continue to focus on the end caps that work perfectly, thus a poor argument IMHO. Get a clue. The cardboard end caps in a FRAM work just a good, the FRAM is overpriced for what it is, the ST is not.

These endcaps, whatever they're made of, most certainly did NOT "work perfectly". In fact, they failed miserably. One of the things they're supposed to do is keep the pleats where they're supposed to be. As you can see, these flimsy caps allowed the pleats to part dramatically.

Also notice how the caps are slightly distorted and not "flat". Steel would NEVER allow this to happen.

Of course, you're free to use whatever you choose. I simply won't use any variant of this design, period.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: SWHeat
What Gary said. Flow dynamics seal the felt to the media...even IF it were not bonded at all and floating in space above the media.

If a e-core was totally junk, it would have collapsed with the beating it got from my Grand Caravan with Auto-Rx rinse phase.

OK, now notice the difference here. Your filter element is clearly in better condition than the OP's. Look at the shape and solidity of the end caps. I don't think you hammered on it as bad as you may think. But for me, the point is still that if the filter reaches some critical stress point, an ecore will (perhaps "may" would be a better word) do what the OP's did. A steel cap and tube design won't. IMO, anyway.

 

[RF Overlord]

I'm not going to comment on the "E-core vs. everyone else" debate except to say that the filter presented in the OP's pix was either in service long past a reasonable time, or it was installed on a motor in poor mechanical condition. I don't have the actual filter to examine, but it sure looks loaded with sludge to me. It wouldn't have mattered if it were an E-core or an AMSOIL, it was still over-utilized.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
I'm not going to comment on the "E-core vs. everyone else" debate except to say that the filter presented in the OP's pix was either in service long past a reasonable time, or it was installed on a motor in poor mechanical condition. I don't have the actual filter to examine, but it sure looks loaded with sludge to me. It wouldn't have mattered if it were an E-core or an AMSOIL, it was still over-utilized.


I agree, but I also think that any filter with rigid metal end caps, and a strong metal center tube would have provided a margin for error that probably would have prevented this particular failure.

 

[Buick92]

Congrats ekpolk! You had 4 posts in a row on this thread on the previous page, I just wish I had the time. I disagree with your comments about the e-core filters, I think they are well built and more than strong enough. It would not suprise me a bit to see other oil filter companies switch to their "own" version of the e-core design.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: Buick92
Congrats ekpolk! You had 4 posts in a row on this thread on the previous page, I just wish I had the time. I disagree with your comments about the e-core filters, I think they are well built and more than strong enough. It would not suprise me a bit to see other oil filter companies switch to their "own" version of the e-core design.


No need to be sarcastic or whatever, but for your effort, I hereby award you the

of the day award. . .

You can have all the ecores you want, and that's fine with me.

I won't use them. As the OP's photos suggest (notice, I didn't claim or say "prove") it is very possible for pressure to blow a hole through the filter medium where there's nothing behind the medium to back and support it. And without unmovably rigid caps to stabilize the medium, it can clearly spread, as my annotated photo clearly shows. Now, if an ecore cost vastly less money than a full-quality filter, then maybe I'd consider one. But since they are all within a few bucks of each other, I'll take the full-quality design every time.

EDIT: Oh yeah, coincidentally, I just dissected a NAPA Gold earlier today, and took pics. I'll post pics later, showing what I insist upon finding inside my oil filters.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: unDummy
Factory defect plain and simple.
Bazillion filters role down the assembly line and some of them have issues. You got one.


At first blush, it's easy to conclude that. But give it some more thought. TWO things happened here. First, the pleats were allowed to be pushed apart (meaning, among other things, the end caps were NOT keeping them in proper position). And right in the middle of the separated pleats, the medium fails, allowing oil to blow right through it.

I think this is a result of a design that lacks sufficient "safeguards" to deal with partial failures or extreme conditions.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Originally Posted By: Buick92
Congrats ekpolk! You had 4 posts in a row on this thread on the previous page, I just wish I had the time. I disagree with your comments about the e-core filters, I think they are well built and more than strong enough. It would not suprise me a bit to see other oil filter companies switch to their "own" version of the e-core design.


No need to be sarcastic or whatever, but for your effort, I hereby award you the

of the day award. . .

You can have all the ecores you want, and that's fine with me.

I won't use them. As the OP's photos suggest (notice, I didn't claim or say "prove") it is very possible for pressure to blow a hole through the filter medium where there's nothing behind the medium to back and support it. And without unmovably rigid caps to stabilize the medium, it can clearly spread, as my annotated photo clearly shows. Now, if an ecore cost vastly less money than a full-quality filter, then maybe I'd consider one. But since they are all within a few bucks of each other, I'll take the full-quality design every time.

EDIT: Oh yeah, coincidentally, I just dissected a NAPA Gold earlier today, and took pics. I'll post pics later, showing what I insist upon finding inside my oil filters.


I agree with your points on this filter, as they go hand-in-hand with my own observations and thoughts that I posted earlier in this thread.

When I cut mine apart, I expect them to look like the last two filters I've had off my Expedition, and the ones I've had off my other vehicles. As per my Fleetguard thread, that's what I like seeing.

 

[SWHeat]

Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Originally Posted By: SWHeat
What Gary said. Flow dynamics seal the felt to the media...even IF it were not bonded at all and floating in space above the media.

If a e-core was totally junk, it would have collapsed with the beating it got from my Grand Caravan with Auto-Rx rinse phase.

OK, now notice the difference here. Your filter element is clearly in better condition than the OP's. Look at the shape and solidity of the end caps. I don't think you hammered on it as bad as you may think. But for me, the point is still that if the filter reaches some critical stress point, an ecore will (perhaps "may" would be a better word) do what the OP's did. A steel cap and tube design won't. IMO, anyway.


It is my opinion that the e-core design is superior in many ways and that its weak point is the combo ADBV/BV mechanism. Put metal end caps on it, a Motorcraft type bypass valve, and that design would be the sweet spot of filtration and flow. Yet, we will probably never see such a design. The nylon cage is stronger than the spiral steel.

A theory not mentioned thus far is that the bypass mechanism failed and hence the media failure. Just as plausible in my opinion. And a failed bypass valve in any loaded filter would have similar results even with metal end caps and core.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: SWHeat
. . .

It is my opinion that the e-core design is superior in many ways and that its weak point is the combo ADBV/BV mechanism. Put metal end caps on it, a Motorcraft type bypass valve, and that design would be the sweet spot of filtration and flow. Yet, we will probably never see such a design. The nylon cage is stronger than the spiral steel.

On average, for the entire area of the inside of the element, the nylon might be stronger. But it covers far less of the clean side of the element. The metal designs support far more area of the element. If there's a blow-through-prone weak spot in the element, the metal designs are far more likely to support it than the nylon cage is.

Originally Posted By: SWHeat
A theory not mentioned thus far is that the bypass mechanism failed and hence the media failure. Just as plausible in my opinion. And a failed bypass valve in any loaded filter would have similar results even with metal end caps and core.

Good point. Of course, in that scenario, the ability of the end caps to keep the element pleats in place, and the backing of the steel tube will go a long way to preventing a catastrophic failure.

That said, some conditions are so catastrophic that no filter can withstand them. We had some pics here of an Amsoil filter whose center tube collapsed. All things being equal, I'd prefer the beefier filter.

 

[GMBoy]

I can't figure out what may have happened or why. BUT - as crazy as this may sound, maybe it could have happened: The OP noted in the thread that this filter was run on a vehicle with very short commutes. Short commutes, we all know, introduces a lot of excess fuel and water into the oil since it doesn't get the chance to burn off like with longer trips. Now - just what if, water was in the filter and froze - spreading the pleats. Then, when started, the oil pressure forced a sharp piece if ice thru the filter making the hole??

I know, probably not possible, but nobody has any better theories yet.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:

Bill, I have to disagree. First, OK, whatever the endcaps are, they are NOT sufficient to keep the pleats rigidly in place. In the original picture, you can see the "wavy" shape, and see how the pleats pulled and spread, because they did not have anything holding them firmly in place.


I'm not sure of your point here. Most Champ filters have a variable spread of the pleats on the side where the seam meets (or is that seams meet?). A human pinches the glued pieces together. I don't think that this process has changed at Champ. You'll usually have 3/5 of the thing normal looking ..and a "spread-bunch" section.