E15 and MY question

[faramir9]

So, I keep reading that E15 should not be used in MY 2000 and earlier vehicles. As I drive a 2000 Saturn SL, I want to get straight on this. Not that I plan to use E15 if given the option---I fear the day might come when we have no option, such as now with E10.

Is there something 'magical' about engine technology that changed with MY 2001, that makes all vehicles since then safe for E15---or was that MY chosen by somewhat arbitrary means? As far as I know, the 1.9 SOHC is identical in the 2000 and 2001 Saturn.

I am pretty sure that engines that rolled off the assembly line in calendar 2000, that were designed in the '90s, were not engineered with E15 in mind....even if they were put into MY 2001 vehicles.

The whole thing makes me scratch my head. What am I missing? Thanks.

 

[RiceCake]

That year was mostly chosen arbitrarily is what I've come to understand; a huge majority of cars past that model year have fuel system components that were built with ethanol mixed fuels in mind, so as such are more robust against any possible degradation.

Also its hugely unlikely E15 will come around as mandatory any time in the next decade, so I wouldn't worry about it that much. Most E15 pumps I've seen online are still 'flex fuel' only labelled.

 

[Mustang2008Z]

The information regarding using E-15 is based upon EPA and its' statistical analysis of information regarding how long a vehicle stays in-service or on-the-road.

Most MY 2000 vehicles should be off the road by now.....Yeah, right.......

However, EPA did NOT study the actual effects of E-15 on vehicles.

A study was done by an independent laboratory that stated that an increase in ethanol in real unleaded gasoline would cause severe problems for the motoring public. That study was used to persuade EPA NOT to go to E-15 at this time.

There was one other MAJOR reason why EPA backed off, but that cannot be printed here.

 

[Astro14]

E15 shouldn't be used in nearly every vehicle...very few, including through 2012, were designed for greater than 10% ethanol...no problem in flex-fuel vehicles - they're set up for it...but could be a problem in nearly everything else...not just seal/component compatibility, but range of mixture adjustment as E15 requires more fuel for a given amount of air...and some vehicles simply can't compensate enough to run correctly...

 

[RiceCake]

I'm just gonna huck in here amidst the inevitable plague of "the government is evil" and "the EPA wants to murder me" pleas...

I've run the equivalent of E50 in my 1997, non-flex-fuel car before and it just felt a little slow, that was all.

I'm sure some cars will hate E15 nontheless.

 

[ddtmoto]

E15 will void a lot of car and other vehicle warranties.....nasty stuff, what a joke. Nothing new for the EPA.....

 

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted By: RiceCake
I'm just gonna huck in here amidst the inevitable plague of "the government is evil" and "the EPA wants to murder me" pleas...

I've run the equivalent of E50 in my 1997, non-flex-fuel car before and it just felt a little slow, that was all.

I'm sure some cars will hate E15 nontheless.


I've done the same in the Jeep, and it got worse mpg (as expected), but actually ran a bit better (no loss of power, slightly better throttle response, etc)

 

[beechcraftted]

I agree with Rice and rslofkin. I have run over 900 gallons of E 45 in both my '96 Silverado and my daughters '00 Alero (both non flex) and I can report zero issues except a slight loss of mileage. No issues w/ corrosion, water, decomposing lines or hard starts. could not tell it was in there. Current automotive engineering to tolerate E10/E15 means using materials that are 100% ethanol tolerant. I use it whenever possible. I'm sure there are vehicles that won't like it, but my experiences have been nothing but positive.

 

[mechtech2]

Originally Posted By: beechcraftted
I agree with Rice and rslofkin. I have run over 900 gallons of E 45 in both my '96 Silverado and my daughters '00 Alero (both non flex) and I can report zero issues except a slight loss of mileage. No issues w/ corrosion, water, decomposing lines or hard starts. could not tell it was in there. Current automotive engineering to tolerate E10/E15 means using materials that are 100% ethanol tolerant. I use it whenever possible. I'm sure there are vehicles that won't like it, but my experiences have been nothing but positive.


And how often did you tear down , measure, and rebuild each component for wear and deposits?
I have owner's manuals from Ford that state to change you oil more frequently with alcohol infused fuels, an that was before E15 was around.

 

[Doog]

I was in my Toyota dealer for a free oil service and was talking to the tech there about E15. He said that the car will run poorly and you will ultimately get issues with the fuel system components and emission system over a long period of time. Since the emission system has a longer warranty Toyota will void your warranty if they discover you using E15. The government in California requires them to warranty the emission system longer than the balance of the US states and this warranty is what the whole voided warranty issue is based on.

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: beechcraftted
I agree with Rice and rslofkin. I have run over 900 gallons of E 45 in both my '96 Silverado and my daughters '00 Alero (both non flex) and I can report zero issues except a slight loss of mileage.


900 gallons would not be enough use to determine if there were long term effects. That would be the equivalent of 14000 miles in a Silverado.

 

[Kestas]

Originally Posted By: faramir9
Is there something 'magical' about engine technology that changed with MY 2001, that makes all vehicles since then safe for E15---or was that MY chosen by somewhat arbitrary means? As far as I know, the 1.9 SOHC is identical in the 2000 and 2001 Saturn.

That is my concern as well. Why 2001? It smells more like a political or lobby group decision than a technical one. Probably calculated to tick off the fewest number of people.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Originally Posted By: beechcraftted
I agree with Rice and rslofkin. I have run over 900 gallons of E 45 in both my '96 Silverado and my daughters '00 Alero (both non flex) and I can report zero issues except a slight loss of mileage. No issues w/ corrosion, water, decomposing lines or hard starts. could not tell it was in there. Current automotive engineering to tolerate E10/E15 means using materials that are 100% ethanol tolerant. I use it whenever possible. I'm sure there are vehicles that won't like it, but my experiences have been nothing but positive.


And how often did you tear down , measure, and rebuild each component for wear and deposits?
I have owner's manuals from Ford that state to change you oil more frequently with alcohol infused fuels, an that was before E15 was around.


Good point, there are a number of rather unique byproducts formed when alcohol is burned in an internal combustion engine.

While E10 has proven to be a non-issue for many, there are tons of boaters and OPE operators who would say otherwise. E15 is specifically mentioned in some newer cars as verboten, thus my conclusion is that it ain't so great as the enviro weenies and their special interest groups (the corn lobbyists) want us to think it is.

 

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
While E10 has proven to be a non-issue for many, there are tons of boaters and OPE operators who would say otherwise. E15 is specifically mentioned in some newer cars as verboten, thus my conclusion is that it ain't so great as the enviro weenies and their special interest groups (the corn lobbyists) want us to think it is.


We must be some of the lucky ones, as the only E10 issue we had in the boat was having to replace the fuel lines, as the older ones weren't alcohol rated and started to collapse internally after the switch.

 

[jdeare]

I don't know of a single pump with E85 within ~50 miles of my normal areas (there's 1 with the dial adjuster about 2 hours away). I would think those would come before E15 pumps.

Edit: I take that back, I know of 1. I'm sure there are more around, I just never see them.

 

[Cujet]

There are some who have tried E-85 in regular cars. Some will run on it without too much issue, until you ask for full power.

I can't imagine that E-15 is outside the tuning parameters of modern engines, in lambda operation. BUT, during full throttle or heavy load operation, many engines do not use the oxygen sensor for mixture adjustment. In this case, E-15 could result in loss of power or poor dynamics. All of which depend on an engine's individual tuning configuration.

 

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
There are some who have tried E-85 in regular cars. Some will run on it without too much issue, until you ask for full power.

I can't imagine that E-15 is outside the tuning parameters of modern engines, in lambda operation. BUT, during full throttle or heavy load operation, many engines do not use the oxygen sensor for mixture adjustment. In this case, E-15 could result in loss of power or poor dynamics. All of which depend on an engine's individual tuning configuration.


Most modern ECUs will apply up to a 30% up or down correction factor to the open loop tables used at WOT and right after startup based on how much they're having to adjust based on the O2 readings in closed loop. The Jeep does this and had no issues at WOT on E45 - E50 (I can't run straight E85 without bigger injectors, E65 or so would have mine maxed out at WOT and high rpm, and I'd need a re-tune, as E85 would have it hitting against the 30% upper limit for fueling correction, causing it to run lean and throw a CEL).

 

[zerosoma]

I generally use E10 unless there is less than 5 cents difference between the two, then it's worth it to me to get basic Unleaded. The fuel economy of Regular Unleaded does not make a difference unless you can get it for around the same price as E10. IMO.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
E15 shouldn't be used in nearly every vehicle...very few, including through 2012, were designed for greater than 10% ethanol...no problem in flex-fuel vehicles - they're set up for it...but could be a problem in nearly everything else...not just seal/component compatibility, but range of mixture adjustment as E15 requires more fuel for a given amount of air...and some vehicles simply can't compensate enough to run correctly...


Ford ok's anything less than E20 in the new Focus.