E-85 is Horrible! What a joke!

[Cujet]

My 09 Ford F150 performs significantly better on E85, especially on hot South Florida days. It's a fairly high compression engine and it is well tuned to take advantage of the additional octane of E85.

I now see 14.4 "indicated" miles per gallon on gasoline, with my typical mission. E85 lowers the indicated MPG's to 13.0.

During the last few years, E85 was priced according to energy content, and the cost per mile was identical.

However, it seems that Ethanol has become expensive (probably due to the loss of government subsidies) and E85 is now selling for 10% less than regular.

The result: E85 is significantly more expensive per mile now.


It's clear that more modern engines, with very high compression ratio's, and/or high boost levels and direct injection can more effectively utilize E85 and return significantly better than predicted economy/performance (by energy content) . Just don't expect 1950's engine technology to thrive on E85.

 

[mechtech2]

I agree, E85 is a Gov't induced thing. A joke, as is E10.

Benefits of alcohol? Cleaning and keeping clean. Water absorbing by alcohol is a GOOD thing - gets any liquid water up and out.
It is somewhat self oxygenating - good.
It has a high natural octane rating, allowing higher compression and more ignition advance.

Detriments of alcohol in fuel? I Hate the fuel economy hit and loss of power. This is substantial!

 

[artificialist]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: sciphi
Originally Posted By: oppirs
E-85 has one merit & only one, higher octane! Good for those high compression engines I use to run.

If they sold E-100 it be $50 a gallon due to a booze tax

Turbocharged cars + E85 could be a win, as long as the engine has a proper computer calibration to extract all the potential out of E85. I've heard of some crazy dyno figures on turbo cars properly equipped and tuned for E85, power levels that simply aren't possible on pump gas.

Right now, all the "flex-fuel" vehicles are a boondoggle. Being able to run E85 does not mean they run well on it!


Saw a dude from Miami (Dade County, FL plates) who had a Firebird with a custom-tuned ECM controlling a twin-turbo LS1, could run 89 or 93 octane gas, or could run E85. On E85, it was a low 9-second car...and it was the guy's ONLY VEHICLE. he drove it on at least three Power Tours of 3000+ miles EACH. He usually ran it on gas, but if going to the track, he would fill with alky.

The OP's number one complaint is that E85 has far lower MPG.

Someone with a car built for racing probably doesn't care about their MPG.

And yes, injecting lots of E-85 in a turbo engine car generate great power, numerous guys at my Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution forums have done some mods to make it work. The cars are still fuel hogs and E85 makes it worse there too.

 

[G-MAN]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
I agree, E85 is a Gov't induced thing. A joke, as is E10.

Benefits of alcohol? Cleaning and keeping clean. Water absorbing by alcohol is a GOOD thing - gets any liquid water up and out.
It is somewhat self oxygenating - good.
It has a high natural octane rating, allowing higher compression and more ignition advance.

Detriments of alcohol in fuel? I Hate the fuel economy hit and loss of power. This is substantial!


FlexFuel vehicles typically produce MORE power on E85, they just have to use more of it. My 300 sure feels peppier and runs smoother on E85.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
My 09 Ford F150 performs significantly better on E85, especially on hot South Florida days. It's a fairly high compression engine and it is well tuned to take advantage of the additional octane of E85.

I now see 14.4 "indicated" miles per gallon on gasoline, with my typical mission. E85 lowers the indicated MPG's to 13.0.

During the last few years, E85 was priced according to energy content, and the cost per mile was identical.

However, it seems that Ethanol has become expensive (probably due to the loss of government subsidies) and E85 is now selling for 10% less than regular.

The result: E85 is significantly more expensive per mile now.


It's clear that more modern engines, with very high compression ratio's, and/or high boost levels and direct injection can more effectively utilize E85 and return significantly better than predicted economy/performance (by energy content) . Just don't expect 1950's engine technology to thrive on E85.


Actually, by YOUR posted mileage numbers...it's a wash.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: artificialist
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: sciphi
Originally Posted By: oppirs
E-85 has one merit & only one, higher octane! Good for those high compression engines I use to run.

If they sold E-100 it be $50 a gallon due to a booze tax

Turbocharged cars + E85 could be a win, as long as the engine has a proper computer calibration to extract all the potential out of E85. I've heard of some crazy dyno figures on turbo cars properly equipped and tuned for E85, power levels that simply aren't possible on pump gas.

Right now, all the "flex-fuel" vehicles are a boondoggle. Being able to run E85 does not mean they run well on it!


Saw a dude from Miami (Dade County, FL plates) who had a Firebird with a custom-tuned ECM controlling a twin-turbo LS1, could run 89 or 93 octane gas, or could run E85. On E85, it was a low 9-second car...and it was the guy's ONLY VEHICLE. he drove it on at least three Power Tours of 3000+ miles EACH. He usually ran it on gas, but if going to the track, he would fill with alky.

The OP's number one complaint is that E85 has far lower MPG.

Someone with a car built for racing probably doesn't care about their MPG.

And yes, injecting lots of E-85 in a turbo engine car generate great power, numerous guys at my Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution forums have done some mods to make it work. The cars are still fuel hogs and E85 makes it worse there too.


No, you're not paying attention: it is a DAILY DRIVEN CAR. It is the owner's ONLY VEHICLE. Mileage IS important...and it tops 25MPG on a highway run! (Amazing what a tall overdrive and a very streamlined Firebird body can do.)

 

[whip]

I don't get the joke. less in = less out......

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle


Actually, by YOUR posted mileage numbers...it's a wash.


Yes those were my most recent tank. Sometimes the E85 is much worse. I've always figured it's because I can't keep my foot out of it! As my truck picks up quite a bit of power and response with E85.

 

[Cujet]

I'd like you guys to know that it's possible to match a diesels thermal efficiency with E85. I'm not saying it's good, as there are problems with such a setup. Just that it's possible.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alt...ent-than-diesel

"Ricardo is working on a turbocharged engine that uses E85, a lofty compression ratio and high boost levels to achieve diesel-like efficiency. Rod Beazley, Ricardo's VP of spark-ignited engines, boasts that "our ethanol-boosted concept engine achieves thermal efficiency in the low 40 percent range."

 

[antonmnster]

I use e85 in my 2012 F250 with the 6-liter. I have both e10 and e85 available. I used e10 (standard around here for the last 20-odd years) for a few months and am on my second tank of e85.

My mileage went, so far, from 12.4 to 12.1. The exhaust sounds quite a bit meaner.

I'm going to keep using it.

 

[G-MAN]

Originally Posted By: antonmnster
I use e85 in my 2012 F250 with the 6-liter. I have both e10 and e85 available. I used e10 (standard around here for the last 20-odd years) for a few months and am on my second tank of e85.

My mileage went, so far, from 12.4 to 12.1. The exhaust sounds quite a bit meaner.

I'm going to keep using it.


I noticed the same thing on my 2012 300. On gas I could not hear the exhaust sound inside the car. On E85 I can hear a definite burble when I start it and pull off from idle.

 

[dave1251]

Yikes I just checked E85 prices. Some places around here it is the same price as regular 87. No thank you!

 

[01rangerxl]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
Yikes I just checked E85 prices. Some places around here it is the same price as regular 87. No thank you!


It has been the same here lately, so I have been using 87. When E85 is cheaper, I really prefer that. The truck runs good on 87, but it runs awesome on E85. Smooth as silk and will light up the rear tires without hesitation. I just get the same fuel economy that I would get with a warmed over 5.0 in the truck, and no amount of E85 makes it run like it would with a 5.0.

 

[Shannow]

L67 owners are running E85 out of preference, but not for economy or the environment.

 

[Kruse]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
Yikes I just checked E85 prices. Some places around here it is the same price as regular 87. No thank you!


The severe drought that has hit the cornbelt has corn prices skyrocketing. The drought might do what our government has been unable to do, and that's cut down on alcohol in our fuel.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
I'd like you guys to know that it's possible to match a diesels thermal efficiency with E85. I'm not saying it's good, as there are problems with such a setup. Just that it's possible.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alt...ent-than-diesel

"Ricardo is working on a turbocharged engine that uses E85, a lofty compression ratio and high boost levels to achieve diesel-like efficiency. Rod Beazley, Ricardo's VP of spark-ignited engines, boasts that "our ethanol-boosted concept engine achieves thermal efficiency in the low 40 percent range."


Pretty impossible to make such a system "flex" fueled

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: Kruse
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Yikes I just checked E85 prices. Some places around here it is the same price as regular 87. No thank you!


The severe drought that has hit the cornbelt has corn prices skyrocketing. The drought might do what our government has been unable to do, and that's cut down on alcohol in our fuel.


Yeah but at what cost? MTBE use is illegal in some parts in the US.

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2

So E85 has 72% of the energy content of gasoline.



What's the energy content of E100 and the octane rating?

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Cujet
I'd like you guys to know that it's possible to match a diesels thermal efficiency with E85. I'm not saying it's good, as there are problems with such a setup. Just that it's possible...


Pretty impossible to make such a system "flex" fueled


That's probably true, if we don't have a viable way to change compression ratio. However, interestingly enough, highly variable intake valve timing can "virtually" adjust compression ratio, and could go a long way towards making such an engine remotely feasible.

Just because we can does not mean we should. I'm in favor of the research, but that's about it. I'm not convinced E85, in it's current form, should be a mainstream fuel.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
E85 has 72% of the energy content of gasoline and the price is 95% is not a good value.


Very to the point, and free of the incredibly rude elitism that is rampant around here.

The CHIEF said so!