Durability Toyota 0w-20 oil

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
TGMO 0W-20 is also available in bulk to dealers so a deal can often be struck that way as was discussed in the following thread:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/tgmo-0w-20-available-in-bulk-for-4-52-l.198994/



That's fine as long as you're sure they'e actually giving you the TGMO and not playing games. I'd rather pay a little more and get the bottles, and that goes for anything in bulk. JMO

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: TrevorS
Clevy did you put mmo into the 20 weight?

That alone would make Mobil 1 5w20 thinner than Toyota 0w20.


I've got an mmo inverse oiler hooked up to a vacuum line however I think any potential blowby is minimal due to flow rate.
Right now the mustang has Mobil 1 5w-20 and half a can of mos2 in the sump.
I did notice that my leak has reared its ugly head again. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. Thinking half a can of motor oil saver to address the issue,again.
Last interval I didn't use any motor oil saver. I figured the leak was fixed however maybe the combination of beating it and thinner oil is the right combo as far as exposing weak and shrunk gaskets.
Doesn't matter. I'm gonna pound on it until it blows.
Torture testing a 302 with thin oil and high revs,lets see how long it will survive.
I'm thinking of a caa membership for the inevitable tow home at some point soon.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
TGMO 0W-20 is also available in bulk to dealers so a deal can often be struck that way as was discussed in the following thread:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/tgmo-0w-20-available-in-bulk-for-4-52-l.198994/

That's fine as long as you're sure they'e actually giving you the TGMO and not playing games. I'd rather pay a little more and get the bottles, and that goes for anything in bulk. JMO

You're unduly cynical.
If the dealer claims their bulk 0W-20 is TGMO (btw that's all Cdn Toyota/Lexus dealers use) it's easy enough to confirm as TGMO and the grade is clearly stenciled on the sides.

 

[CATERHAM]

That's TGMO 0W-20 clearly labeled on the sides of the 55 gallon drums it comes in.

 

[TrevorS]

Why do Toyota / Lexus insist on 0w as opposed to 5w?

Mobil specifically state on Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w20 that it is suitable for Toyota and Honda. Is there anything in the spec beyond it being a 0w that makes it suitable?

They did the same when the recommended oil was 5w30. They made a point of saying that 10w30 was not suitable.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: TrevorS
Why do Toyota / Lexus insist on 0w as opposed to 5w?

Mobil specifically state on Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w20 that it is suitable for Toyota and Honda. Is there anything in the spec beyond it being a 0w that makes it suitable?

They did the same when the recommended oil was 5w30. They made a point of saying that 10w30 was not suitable.

The main difference is in the viscosity index.
Just like a 5w30 has a higher VI than a 10w30 it's even more pronounced between the Mobil made TGMO 0W-20 (216 VI) and Mobil 1 0W-20 (VI 170-173).
What it means is that TGMO is much lighter on start-up, 25% lighter at room temperature and 35% lighter at 32F.

That said Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-20 is still somewhat lighter than a 5W-20 on start-up and if you want to use it instead of TGMO you can, it's just a heavier oil.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
TGMO 0W-20 is also available in bulk to dealers so a deal can often be struck that way as was discussed in the following thread:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/tgmo-0w-20-available-in-bulk-for-4-52-l.198994/

That's fine as long as you're sure they'e actually giving you the TGMO and not playing games. I'd rather pay a little more and get the bottles, and that goes for anything in bulk. JMO

You're unduly cynical.
If the dealer claims their bulk 0W-20 is TGMO (btw that's all Cdn Toyota/Lexus dealers use) it's easy enough to confirm as TGMO and the grade is clearly stenciled on the sides.


LOL I guess that's because I worked in places that played those games, and more, that's all.

 

[1000MPH]

My dealer categorically shot down my suggestion that they sell me any fluids in bulk. They also denied my request to look at the drum. Insurance purposes...of course.
Try this for a better deal on the oil: Go to your local Toyota dealer's parts website and search this case part number (002790WQTE).
My dealer wouldn't match the online price in person but said I could order it online and choose pickup. I've checked several dealers and noted prices from $60-$70 online.
Also check your local Lexus with the same p/n. That's where I saw the $60/cs.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: 1000MPH
My dealer categorically shot down my suggestion that they sell me any fluids in bulk. They also denied my request to look at the drum. Insurance purposes...of course.


Bingo! Now if they did sell it in bulk and you weren't allowed to follow the guy into the back and actually watch him fill your container/containers, what guarantee do you have you're getting the TCMO 0w20 or the 5w20 conventional special of the month? That's why I said I'd rather pay a little more and get it in sealed bottles.

 

[TrevorS]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: TrevorS
Why do Toyota / Lexus insist on 0w as opposed to 5w?

Mobil specifically state on Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w20 that it is suitable for Toyota and Honda. Is there anything in the spec beyond it being a 0w that makes it suitable?

They did the same when the recommended oil was 5w30. They made a point of saying that 10w30 was not suitable.

The main difference is in the viscosity index.
Just like a 5w30 has a higher VI than a 10w30 it's even more pronounced between the Mobil made TGMO 0W-20 (216 VI) and Mobil 1 0W-20 (VI 170-173).
What it means is that TGMO is much lighter on start-up, 25% lighter at room temperature and 35% lighter at 32F.

That said Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-20 is still somewhat lighter than a 5W-20 on start-up and if you want to use it instead of TGMO you can, it's just a heavier oil.


Understood about why they recommend TGMO 0w20.

But Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w20 meets the Toyota requirements because it is an 0w20 whereas something virtually as light eg Pennzoil Platinum 5w20 does not and should only be used if 0w20 is not available and should be replaced with 0w20 at the next opportunity.

What is the difference between an approved 0w20 like Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy and a non approved 5w20 like PP. There does not seem to enough of a difference in VI so what is it about the 0w that is preferable to the 5w?

 

[SlipperyPete]

Originally Posted By: TrevorS
Why do Toyota / Lexus insist on 0w as opposed to 5w?

Mobil specifically state on Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w20 that it is suitable for Toyota and Honda. Is there anything in the spec beyond it being a 0w that makes it suitable?

They did the same when the recommended oil was 5w30. They made a point of saying that 10w30 was not suitable.


It has been posted before that manufacturers are going with longer OCI's now and specifying 0w20 insures synthetic oil is being used for those longer OCI's, instead of someone using conventional oil for a longer period than that with which the manufacturer is comfortable.

I have no idea whether or not that is true, but I find it more logical than anything else I have read.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: TrevorS
What is the difference between an approved 0w20 like Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy and a non approved 5w20 like PP. There does not seem to enough of a difference in VI so what is it about the 0w that is preferable to the 5w?

Of course, we do have 5w-20s with relative high VIs and some with lower, and the same applies to the 0w-20 grade. You will find certain exceptions, such as lower VI 0w-20s and higher VI 5w-20s.

However, you answered your own question when you brought up the 10w30 versus 5w30. Generally, the lower number before the "w" indicates a higher VI. When 5w30 became specified over 10w30, 10w30 became ignored. That procedure isn't just a Toyota issue. In my experience, GM and Ford did exactly the same thing. My G calls for a 5w30, not a 10w30 or an SAE 30.

Aside from the very valid possibility already mentioned that Toyota is looking for a synthetic to ensure the OCIs aren't a stretch, the general improvement in VI is the real reason - i.e. fuel economy gains, however marginal. Why do they recommend against 5w-20? Well, if that doesn't seem to be a big deal, make it a more glaring comparison. Would you choose a straight grade?

As I've mentioned in other threads before, I'm not one to hunt for the highest VI oil possible. But, that doesn't mean I cannot benefit from the trend in increased VI over the past few decades.

 

[wiswind]

WOW!....this has gotten a lot of responses!....

First......this is a TOYOTA.....
IF this vehicle has a oil cooler, it may be a cooler that uses the coolant in the cooling system, not a fin cooler in front of the radiator that transfers heat to the air.
I don't know for sure on the vehicle in question, but my toyota would be that way, if it had the extra cooler.

Next....110 degrees F is SUPER HOT for us humans.....but it is not even fully warmed up for a engine. The thermostat is not even open then.
So, the question of "is the engine getting too hot for this oil?" might be best answered by monitoring the coolant temperature.
The temperature gauge is not the best thing to use, but may be a rough indication.
I use a ScanGauge connected to the OBDII port to monitor engine coolant temperature.....as you are reading the same value that the computer is seeing......right by the thermostat.
If the coolant temperature is not overly hot (significantly above the temperature value of your thermostat), don't worry about it.
Cruising down the freeway, as has been mentioned, is about the easiest thing for your engine to be doing.
While you may be thankful that your A/C is working....you engine is likely not suffering at all.

Caterham has mentioned MANY times that an oil pressure gauge is the best way to tell if you have the best viscosity for your engine.
I am not countering this, but am trying to differentiate between normal operation and severe operation.
Most will agree that the manufacturer's recommended oil viscosity is the best starting place for making you choice of oil.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: TrevorS
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: TrevorS
Why do Toyota / Lexus insist on 0w as opposed to 5w?

Mobil specifically state on Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w20 that it is suitable for Toyota and Honda. Is there anything in the spec beyond it being a 0w that makes it suitable?

They did the same when the recommended oil was 5w30. They made a point of saying that 10w30 was not suitable.

The main difference is in the viscosity index.
Just like a 5w30 has a higher VI than a 10w30 it's even more pronounced between the Mobil made TGMO 0W-20 (216 VI) and Mobil 1 0W-20 (VI 170-173).
What it means is that TGMO is much lighter on start-up, 25% lighter at room temperature and 35% lighter at 32F.

That said Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-20 is still somewhat lighter than a 5W-20 on start-up and if you want to use it instead of TGMO you can, it's just a heavier oil.


Understood about why they recommend TGMO 0w20.

But Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w20 meets the Toyota requirements because it is an 0w20 whereas something virtually as light eg Pennzoil Platinum 5w20 does not and should only be used if 0w20 is not available and should be replaced with 0w20 at the next opportunity.

What is the difference between an approved 0w20 like Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy and a non approved 5w20 like Pennzoil Platinum. There does not seem to enough of a difference in VI so what is it about the 0w that is preferable to the 5w?

SlipperyPete and Garak have answered the question in part.
As mentioned by specifying a 0W-20 you are getting a synthetic oil with a VI higher than that of a 5w20 conventional. Pennzoil Platinum 5W-20 has a high VI for a 5W-20 but it's the exception and of course it's much lower than a OEM 0W-20 like TGMO as are most OTC 0W-20s like Mobil 1 0W-20.

The OEM 0W-20s, TGMO in particular is made specifically to maximize fuel economy while minimizing engine wear. And again in the case with Toyota, they have worked closely with their lubrication partners, Nippon Oil and ExxonMobil to make an ultra high shear stable oil.
This is the lubricant they use to produce their published fuel economy ratings. As a result the TGMO lubricant must be made available to their customers at a reasonable price but Toyota need not do more than recommend it's oil be used, consequently Toyota and all OEMs just require that the 0W-20 grade be used.

There is no question in my mind that TGMO 0W-20 is a more expensive oil to formulate than the average OTC 0W-20 but an aftermarket formulator need just make a 0W-20 that meets the requirements of the grade and API and it is okay to be used in vehicles for which the grade is specified.
Since most aftermarket 0W-20s are not high VI oils they will be heavier than necessary, primarily on start-up but at the very least will be mostly synthetic and lighter than almost all 5W-20s.

This position is the best for all involved parties.
The OEMs get to maximize their fuel economy ratings and the aftermarket oil formulators have a less stringent requirement to formulate a 0W-20 grade.
The consumer has the choice to use whatever API 0W-20 they want.

That said, I think it's best for most applications for consumers to use the OEM high VI 0W-20s since that is what is spec'd for their car but I fully support consumer choice even if the reason is for nothing more than brand loyalty.

 

[gaijinnv]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

SlipperyPete and Garak have answered the question in part.
As mentioned by specifying a 0W-20 you are getting a synthetic oil with a VI higher than that of a 5w20 conventional. Pennzoil Platinum 5W-20 has a high VI for a 5W-20 but it's the exception and of course it's much lower than a OEM 0W-20 like TGMO as are most OTC 0W-20s like Mobil 1 0W-20.

The OEM 0W-20s, TGMO in particular is made specifically to maximize fuel economy while minimizing engine wear. And again in the case with Toyota, they have worked closely with their lubrication partners, Nippon Oil and ExxonMobil to make an ultra high shear stable oil.
This is the lubricant they use to produce their published fuel economy ratings. As a result the TGMO lubricant must be made available to their customers at a reasonable price but Toyota need not do more than recommend it's oil be used, consequently Toyota and all OEMs just require that the 0W-20 grade be used.

There is no question in my mind that TGMO 0W-20 is a more expensive oil to formulate than the average OTC 0W-20 but an aftermarket formulator need just make a 0W-20 that meets the requirements of the grade and API and it is okay to be used in vehicles for which the grade is specified.
Since most aftermarket 0W-20s are not high VI oils they will be heavier than necessary, primarily on start-up but at the very least will be mostly synthetic and lighter than almost all 5W-20s.

This position is the best for all involved parties.
The OEMs get to maximize their fuel economy ratings and the aftermarket oil formulators have a less stringent requirement to formulate a 0W-20 grade.
The consumer has the choice to use whatever API 0W-20 they want.

That said, I think it's best for most applications for consumers to use the OEM high VI 0W-20s since that is what is spec'd for their car but I fully support consumer choice even if the reason is for nothing more than brand loyalty.


Well said.

What do you think the differences are (if any?) between TGMO 0W-20 and ENEOS Sustina 0W-20?

Inquiring minds need to know.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: gaijinnv

What do you think the differences are (if any?) between TGMO 0W-20 and ENEOS Sustina 0W-20?

Inquiring minds need to know.

Hi gaijinnv,

Sustina has a higher VI (229) than TGMO due to their use of a naturally higher VI GTL equivalent base oil but has the same
HTHSV of 2.6cP. As a result it is even lighter than TGMO on start-up and still slightly so at normal operating temp'.
It is also the only 0W-20 that has a MRV on par with Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-20. As a result it is the lightest API oil you can buy, at least until the Honda 0W-16 becomes available.

I'm using Sustina 0W-20 in my track car but have thicken it up a bit with a pint of Sustina 0w50 raising the HTHSV to about 2.7cP. The reason is to maintain the minimum OP I want at normal operating temp's. Nevertheless it is still a touch lighter on start-up to TGMO.

 

[gaijinnv]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: gaijinnv

What do you think the differences are (if any?) between TGMO 0W-20 and ENEOS Sustina 0W-20?

Inquiring minds need to know.

Hi gaijinnv,

Sustina has a higher VI (229) than TGMO due to their use of a naturally higher VI GTL equivalent base oil but has the same
HTHSV of 2.6cP. As a result it is even lighter than TGMO on start-up and still slightly so at normal operating temp'.
It is also the only 0W-20 that has a MRV on par with Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-20. As a result it is the lightest API oil you can buy, at least until the Honda 0W-16 becomes available.

I'm using Sustina 0W-20 in my track car but have thicken it up a bit with a pint of Sustina 0w50 raising the HTHSV to about 2.7cP. The reason is to maintain the minimum OP I want at normal operating temp's. Nevertheless it is still a touch lighter on start-up to TGMO.


Thanks, CATERHAM. Appreciate the explanation.

 

[Shannow]

I'm interested given the lack of PDS how the HTHS can be quoted, other than the minimum for the grade...

 

[Petersubaru]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: gaijinnv

What do you think the differences are (if any?) between TGMO 0W-20 and ENEOS Sustina 0W-20?

Inquiring minds need to know.

Hi gaijinnv,

Sustina has a higher VI (229) than TGMO due to their use of a naturally higher VI GTL equivalent base oil but has the same
HTHSV of 2.6cP. As a result it is even lighter than TGMO on start-up and still slightly so at normal operating temp'.
It is also the only 0W-20 that has a MRV on par with Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-20. As a result it is the lightest API oil you can buy, at least until the Honda 0W-16 becomes available.

I'm using Sustina 0W-20 in my track car but have thicken it up a bit with a pint of Sustina 0w50 raising the HTHSV to about 2.7cP. The reason is to maintain the minimum OP I want at normal operating temp's. Nevertheless it is still a touch lighter on start-up to TGMO.
..I am interested to know from what starting point you are using to calculate or arrive at 2.7cP after adding a pint of sustina...Sometime ago in your list of oil pressure readings, you had mentioned how the toyota oil sheared down to 2.4cP after only 150 miles of usage or even sooner ...also if this number (2.4cP) would be a more reasonalble number to begin with if one wants to create there own 0w30 using a combination of TGMO / M1

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Petersubaru
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: gaijinnv

What do you think the differences are (if any?) between TGMO 0W-20 and ENEOS Sustina 0W-20?

Inquiring minds need to know.

Hi gaijinnv,

Sustina has a higher VI (229) than TGMO due to their use of a naturally higher VI GTL equivalent base oil but has the same
HTHSV of 2.6cP. As a result it is even lighter than TGMO on start-up and still slightly so at normal operating temp'.
It is also the only 0W-20 that has a MRV on par with Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-20. As a result it is the lightest API oil you can buy, at least until the Honda 0W-16 becomes available.

I'm using Sustina 0W-20 in my track car but have thicken it up a bit with a pint of Sustina 0w50 raising the HTHSV to about 2.7cP. The reason is to maintain the minimum OP I want at normal operating temp's. Nevertheless it is still a touch lighter on start-up to TGMO.
..I am interested to know from what starting point you are using to calculate or arrive at 2.7cP after adding a pint of sustina...Sometime ago in your list of oil pressure readings, you had mentioned how the toyota oil sheared down to 2.4cP after only 150 miles of usage or even sooner ...also if this number (2.4cP) would be a more reasonalble number to begin with if one wants to create there own 0w30 using a combination of TGMO / Mobil 1

Sustina 0W-20 has a HTHSV of 2.6cP, Sustina 0w50 is about 3.85cP.
A pint in my case works out to 12% 0w50. Plug the numbers into a viscosity calculator and you'll get a net HTHSV of 2.7cP.

Yes the original Nippon Oil made Toyota 0W-20 did shear very quickly and then stabilized for the balance of the OCI.
The latest version of the Mobil made TGMO SN 0W-20 does appear to be a very shear stable oil. We do have a few used oil analysis of TGMO/Mobil 1 SM 0W-40 blends and they are quite shear stable.
That said, if you don't have an oil pressure gauge to determine precisely the operational viscosity of the resulting 0w30 blend I agree blending for a higher virgin HTHSV would be a prudent approach. For example a 40/60 blend will give you a heavier 0w30 at normal operating temp's with a HTHSV of about 3.2cP but since it's VI is still close to 200 it will be lighter on typical start-ups than Mobil 1 0w30 and it's HTHSV of 3.0cP.