Durability Toyota 0w-20 oil

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: hatt
The thing I see emphasized is that Ford believes at some point 5w-20 is inadequate. And this is an oil enthusiast forum. Not everyone asks "hey guys, what's the least I can get by with?"

But that's not to say that going thicker is optimal under all circumstances, either. There is a point where increased viscosity is counterproductive. How the vehicle is driven cannot be forgotten.

20w-50 is an acceptable viscosity for my F-150. I'd be pretty stupid to use it if all I was doing was short tripping, though, no matter how hot the summer was.

 

[Shannow]

I'm still interested in getting back to the premise that Toyota are recommending a higher viscosity for reduced consumption under arduous conditions, as opposed to the lubrication dynamics.

That's what I was trying to bring out of the thread.

Honestly, I think the claim is laughable...just want proponents of the consumption theory to flesh that out a bit to try to make sense of it.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
I'm still interested in getting back to the premise that Toyota are recommending a higher viscosity for reduced consumption under arduous conditions, as opposed to the lubrication dynamics.

That's what I was trying to bring out of the thread.

Honestly, I think the claim is laughable...just want proponents of the consumption theory to flesh that out a bit to try to make sense of it.


I agree it's laughable, but I've never heard that from Toyota--just from folks on the internet. I also didn't see anything regarding alternate viscosity for the 4runner.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: Garak

But that's not to say that going thicker is optimal under all circumstances, either. There is a point where increased viscosity is counterproductive. How the vehicle is driven cannot be forgotten.

20w-50 is an acceptable viscosity for my F-150. I'd be pretty stupid to use it if all I was doing was short tripping, though, no matter how hot the summer was.

No doubt. All vehicles should come with a range of recommendations for optimal protection in all climates and usages that's not tied to arbitrary .gov imposed guidelines.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
I'm still interested in getting back to the premise that Toyota are recommending a higher viscosity for reduced consumption under arduous conditions, as opposed to the lubrication dynamics.

I'm guessing that's almost boilerplate wording. There was very similar wording in the manual for my 1991 Audi 200 Turbo, warning to watch oil level and consumption when using a thinner grade under high speed operation.

Originally Posted By: hatt
All vehicles should come with a range of recommendations for optimal protection in all climates and usages that's not tied to arbitrary .gov imposed guidelines.

For better or worse, oil recommendations have been dumbed down in a lot of instances. That being said, there are many, many instances where a single grade will suffice all year and under all conditions and the engine will still last forever and a day. That's where there is an advantage to 0w-20, 0w-30, 5w-20, and 5w30 grades. We're not using straight grades any longer, so we don't have to act like it, either.

Besides, look at the German vehicles. They may use a heavier oil, but do we see them switching with the seasons any longer, either? It's Mobil 1 0w-40 or GC all year.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: Garak

For better or worse, oil recommendations have been dumbed down in a lot of instances. That being said, there are many, many instances where a single grade will suffice all year and under all conditions and the engine will still last forever and a day. That's where there is an advantage to 0w-20, 0w-30, 5w-20, and 5w30 grades. We're not using straight grades any longer, so we don't have to act like it, either.

Besides, look at the German vehicles. They may use a heavier oil, but do we see them switching with the seasons any longer, either? It's Mobil 1 0w-40 or GC all year.

One oil could very well work for everything. But if that's the case you'll see consistency and not differing recommendations based on country or trim packages. When you see that you have to at least wonder.

One oil could definitely get you by in Florida.

 

[Garak]

That's quite true. The Germans, at least, are pretty picky about their specifications, and it doesn't matter whether it's a German car in Germany or in Canada.

I don't think engines are that fussy, in the end. The Germans have a specification that allows for both very cold and very hot combined with some rather extreme OCIs. In the past, they did the differing grade business and API recommendations. That all worked fine if OCIs weren't way too long.

My point is that the "average" engine, regardless of country of origin or sale, will do well on any reasonable grade of oil on a reasonable OCI. A 0w-20 spec vehicle won't blow up by going to a 5w30 or thicker yet, and a 0w-20 wouldn't blow up my G in winter short tripping.

Heck, the Audi allowed everything from 5w-20 to straight 50. All of a sudden, engines are much pickier? It goes both ways, after all. I didn't have to change oil grades in it with every 10 degree difference in temperature, but it certainly didn't fuss over any differences between a 15w40 and a 10w-40 or a 5w30 and a 10w30. It did consume the lighter grades, but the manual warned about that.

 

[wally6934]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: hatt
The thing I see emphasized is that Ford believes at some point 5w-20 is inadequate. And this is an oil enthusiast forum. Not everyone asks "hey guys, what's the least I can get by with?"

Again you're missing the point entirely.
There is nothing "inadequate" in the 5W-20 grade and if you're not seeing oil temp's greater than 235F there is zero lubrication benefit in running anything heavier, in fact it will be counter-productive.




Aren't you forgetting about film strength and film thickness.

 

[TrevorS]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
From Doug Hillary's discussions on the topic of the Euro marques and their lubricants, this is why they all have their own approvals/certifications. The oils must be tested to meet a given standard, which of course includes things like shear, fuel dilution handling, deposit control.....etc. These extensive testing regimen are employed so that there is no guesswork when choosing a lubricant. If you buy an approved product, you are guaranteed a minimum level (read: adequate, as per the manufacturer's testing) of performance. Which I think is a rather significant improvement over just buying a heavy oil and assuming that it is up to snuff

Having a standard and performing extensive testing isn't exclusive to Euro Marques and heavier oils.

Having said that, it seems to me that the design of many Euro Marques seems to require the most stringent specifications and the highest quality oils.

Japanese and domestic engines in the main seem to do fine on conventional, less high performing oils. As you know, dnewton is pushing SuperTech conventional beyond 10k miles on a domestic short tripped minivan. Another member goes 10k with conventional on a 20 year old high mileage Lexus.

Back speccing engines that have run fine on the everyday dino available over the last 20 years to the higher quality semi syn or syn oils of today does not seem to be risky.

Some very large engines have ran fine on conventional 20 weight oils from 10+ years ago, several of them belonging to members. Arguing about miniscule viscosity differences between Full Synthetic 20 weight oils seems daft in light of those experiences.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: TrevorS

Having a standard and performing extensive testing isn't exclusive to Euro Marques and heavier oils.


No, it certainly isn't

I believe it first appeared in the heavy diesel industry actually, as per Doug Hillary. And I didn't mean to imply that it only applied to heavier oils, simply that the Euro marques tend to, in general, use heavier oils than we do in North America.

Quote:
Having said that, it seems to me that the design of many Euro Marques seems to require the most stringent specifications and the highest quality oils.


I wouldn't necessarily agree here. It just appears they have stricter lubricant standards. There have been many a BMW I-6 run on "God knows what" conventional on this side of the pond and still lasting just as long as any Japanese or American engine. They appear to have traditionally cared more than the Japanese and American companies. But that has changed in recent years.

Quote:
Japanese and domestic engines in the main seem to do fine on conventional, less high performing oils. As you know, dnewton is pushing SuperTech conventional beyond 10k miles on a domestic short tripped minivan. Another member goes 10k with conventional on a 20 year old high mileage Lexus.


Yes, and as I said, there are many a Mercedes Diesel, BMW I6....etc that has been run on non-approved lubricants for just as lengthy distances. Doesn't mean that any of the above are going to be pretty under the valve cover, but they survive.

Quote:
Back speccing engines that have run fine on the everyday dino available over the last 20 years to the higher quality semi syn or syn oils of today does not seem to be risky.

Some very large engines have ran fine on conventional 20 weight oils from 10+ years ago, several of them belonging to members. Arguing about miniscule viscosity differences between Full Synthetic 20 weight oils seems daft in light of those experiences.


It isn't the engine size, but rather the power density and the potential to elevate oil temperatures that is the issue. The 5.4L V8 and 6.8L V10 Ford engines are easier on oil than the 5.0L Coyote and 6.2L Hurricane/BOSS engine because of this. However, Ford has an oil temperature control strategy/safety system in place to protect the engines, so it sort of makes it a moot point.

Your last point I agree with mostly. However, the Toyota oil is one of, if not the lightest oil on the market, even if it isn't by a whole heck of a lot. When you are already pushing the limits in terms of bearing surface area and the like in these modern engines there is the potential for there to be "not enough". Which is why I would be very hesitant to recommend TGMO for a 5.0L Ford for example.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: TrevorS
It's not that bad an example as 30 weight is not allowed for AMGs.

But in any case, does that mean German car owners should avoid HTHS of say exactly 3.5 because that is the minimum number and AMGs and M series oils have HTHS that are far higher?

The oil with HTHS of exactly 3.5 will shear and go out of spec won't it? Or did the auto manufacturers already think of that and that's part of the cushion?

There is nothing magical about an oil having a minimum virgin HTHSV of 3.5cP. BMW has their LL-01 FE 0w30 with a HTHSV of 3.0cP as an option for many models in Europe. I suspect most of the MBs and BMWs in North America once the dealers are no longer servicing the cars are using the lighter 3.0-3.2cP 5w30 oils that are commonly available here.
Personally I haven't run a 3.5cP oil in my Bimmer for years and I can easily maintain more than sufficient oil pressure and I drive as fast as anyone who still has a drivers licence.

Generally German Manufacturers simply prefer a slightly higher viscosity reserve for their cars.

 

[TrevorS]

When 0W16 comes out, perhaps any xW20 will feel safe enough!

 

[jeffroski]

I completely agree, although I believe it is a noise associated with the oil once it get hot. Similar to a motor once the engine is warmed up to operating temps it quiets down. Needless to say I don't want to go off topic, but thank you for the advice. I too am also a veteran 18 years and two to go in the Air Guard.

 

[jeffroski]

Previous comment was directed to INDYMAC.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: TrevorS

Having a standard and performing extensive testing isn't exclusive to Euro Marques and heavier oils.


No, it certainly isn't

I believe it first appeared in the heavy diesel industry actually, as per Doug Hillary. And I didn't mean to imply that it only applied to heavier oils, simply that the Euro marques tend to, in general, use heavier oils than we do in North America.

Quote:
Having said that, it seems to me that the design of many Euro Marques seems to require the most stringent specifications and the highest quality oils.


I wouldn't necessarily agree here. It just appears they have stricter lubricant standards. There have been many a BMW I-6 run on "God knows what" conventional on this side of the pond and still lasting just as long as any Japanese or American engine. They appear to have traditionally cared more than the Japanese and American companies. But that has changed in recent years.

Quote:
Japanese and domestic engines in the main seem to do fine on conventional, less high performing oils. As you know, dnewton is pushing SuperTech conventional beyond 10k miles on a domestic short tripped minivan. Another member goes 10k with conventional on a 20 year old high mileage Lexus.


Yes, and as I said, there are many a Mercedes Diesel, BMW I6....etc that has been run on non-approved lubricants for just as lengthy distances. Doesn't mean that any of the above are going to be pretty under the valve cover, but they survive.

Quote:
Back speccing engines that have run fine on the everyday dino available over the last 20 years to the higher quality semi syn or syn oils of today does not seem to be risky.

Some very large engines have ran fine on conventional 20 weight oils from 10+ years ago, several of them belonging to members. Arguing about miniscule viscosity differences between Full Synthetic 20 weight oils seems daft in light of those experiences.


It isn't the engine size, but rather the power density and the potential to elevate oil temperatures that is the issue. The 5.4L V8 and 6.8L V10 Ford engines are easier on oil than the 5.0L Coyote and 6.2L Hurricane/BOSS engine because of this. However, Ford has an oil temperature control strategy/safety system in place to protect the engines, so it sort of makes it a moot point.

Your last point I agree with mostly. However, the Toyota oil is one of, if not the lightest oil on the market, even if it isn't by a whole heck of a lot. When you are already pushing the limits in terms of bearing surface area and the like in these modern engines there is the potential for there to be "not enough". Which is why I would be very hesitant to recommend TGMO for a 5.0L Ford for example.


I agree for the most part and as far as a ford 5.0 I'd never recommend a 20 grade had I not tried it for myself. Just the thought in those old Windsor engines made me cringe however I am discovering for myself,by using them that it is possible and not going to cause engine failure using a 20 grade in an engine that isn't worn out and adequate oil pressure is maintained.
I wouldn't recommend it to everyone however a low mile "tight" motor can benefit from the slight reduction in parasitic loss and the slight increase in volume that is pumped as well.
Today's 20 grades are pretty much shear proof unless fuel diluted so I'd feel comfortable using one where a 30 grade is applicable.
And my 5.0 is now on its second run of 20 grade oil as of today. I could bear to put my beloved ultra in so I used some of the Mobil 1 5W-20 I bought on rollback last week. Oil pressure is a bit higher at hot idle and I can honestly say I didn't hear any additional engine noise.
Oil had 5000 extremely pounded on miles and came out black and I could see myself in the reflection. That motor must have some deposits from the previous owner. I've done idle flushes,ran mmo in the oil,seafoam etc and the oil still blackens very quickly telling me the new oil is still doing some cleaning up.
No measurable oil consumption after the first 1500kms,I'll track it more closely now that its my second run.
Thin is in.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Clevy

I agree for the most part and as far as a ford 5.0 I'd never recommend a 20 grade had I not tried it for myself. Just the thought in those old Windsor engines made me cringe however I am discovering for myself,by using them that it is possible and not going to cause engine failure using a 20 grade in an engine that isn't worn out and adequate oil pressure is maintained.
I wouldn't recommend it to everyone however a low mile "tight" motor can benefit from the slight reduction in parasitic loss and the slight increase in volume that is pumped as well.
Today's 20 grades are pretty much shear proof unless fuel diluted so I'd feel comfortable using one where a 30 grade is applicable.
And my 5.0 is now on its second run of 20 grade oil as of today. I could bear to put my beloved ultra in so I used some of the Mobil 1 5W-20 I bought on rollback last week. Oil pressure is a bit higher at hot idle and I can honestly say I didn't hear any additional engine noise.
Oil had 5000 extremely pounded on miles and came out black and I could see myself in the reflection. That motor must have some deposits from the previous owner. I've done idle flushes,ran mmo in the oil,seafoam etc and the oil still blackens very quickly telling me the new oil is still doing some cleaning up.
No measurable oil consumption after the first 1500kms,I'll track it more closely now that its my second run.
Thin is in.


Until you spin a rod bearing

I had no problem using it in the winter. But as per our previous discussions on this topic, there are a myriad of reasons why a Xw-20 may not be a great choice in a Windsor. Guess you'll be our test pilot to see how long one will last

 

[TrevorS]

Clevy did you put mmo into the 20 weight?

That alone would make Mobil 1 5w20 thinner than Toyota 0w20.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Clevy

I agree for the most part and as far as a ford 5.0 I'd never recommend a 20 grade had I not tried it for myself. Just the thought in those old Windsor engines made me cringe however I am discovering for myself,by using them that it is possible and not going to cause engine failure using a 20 grade in an engine that isn't worn out and adequate oil pressure is maintained.
I wouldn't recommend it to everyone however a low mile "tight" motor can benefit from the slight reduction in parasitic loss and the slight increase in volume that is pumped as well.
Today's 20 grades are pretty much shear proof unless fuel diluted so I'd feel comfortable using one where a 30 grade is applicable.
And my 5.0 is now on its second run of 20 grade oil as of today. I could bear to put my beloved ultra in so I used some of the Mobil 1 5W-20 I bought on rollback last week. Oil pressure is a bit higher at hot idle and I can honestly say I didn't hear any additional engine noise.
Oil had 5000 extremely pounded on miles and came out black and I could see myself in the reflection. That motor must have some deposits from the previous owner. I've done idle flushes,ran mmo in the oil,seafoam etc and the oil still blackens very quickly telling me the new oil is still doing some cleaning up.
No measurable oil consumption after the first 1500kms,I'll track it more closely now that its my second run.
Thin is in.


Until you spin a rod bearing

I had no problem using it in the winter. But as per our previous discussions on this topic, there are a myriad of reasons why a Xw-20 may not be a great choice in a Windsor. Guess you'll be our test pilot to see how long one will last

Mobil 1 5W-20 is a heavy 20wt oil with it's HTHSV of 2.75cP.
I suspect this oil like most 5W-20 syn's doesn't shear much in service and there is little doubt it's more robust than a 5w30 conventional of 15+ years ago.
If a 5W-20 is okay for "using in the winter" then it is okay for year round use if the main minimum oil pressure can be maintained.
Since Clevy says he can maintain adequate oil pressure
I see no reason to still conclude he is still at risk to "spin a rod bearing" just because the oil he is using is technically a 20wt oil.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Clevy

I agree for the most part and as far as a ford 5.0 I'd never recommend a 20 grade had I not tried it for myself. Just the thought in those old Windsor engines made me cringe however I am discovering for myself,by using them that it is possible and not going to cause engine failure using a 20 grade in an engine that isn't worn out and adequate oil pressure is maintained.
I wouldn't recommend it to everyone however a low mile "tight" motor can benefit from the slight reduction in parasitic loss and the slight increase in volume that is pumped as well.
Today's 20 grades are pretty much shear proof unless fuel diluted so I'd feel comfortable using one where a 30 grade is applicable.
And my 5.0 is now on its second run of 20 grade oil as of today. I could bear to put my beloved ultra in so I used some of the Mobil 1 5W-20 I bought on rollback last week. Oil pressure is a bit higher at hot idle and I can honestly say I didn't hear any additional engine noise.
Oil had 5000 extremely pounded on miles and came out black and I could see myself in the reflection. That motor must have some deposits from the previous owner. I've done idle flushes,ran mmo in the oil,seafoam etc and the oil still blackens very quickly telling me the new oil is still doing some cleaning up.
No measurable oil consumption after the first 1500kms,I'll track it more closely now that its my second run.
Thin is in.


Until you spin a rod bearing

I had no problem using it in the winter. But as per our previous discussions on this topic, there are a myriad of reasons why a Xw-20 may not be a great choice in a Windsor. Guess you'll be our test pilot to see how long one will last

Mobil 1 5W-20 is a heavy 20wt oil with it's HTHSV of 2.75cP.
I suspect this oil like most 5W-20 syn's doesn't shear much in service and there is little doubt it's more robust than a 5w30 conventional of 15+ years ago.
If a 5W-20 is okay for "using in the winter" then it is okay for year round use if the main minimum oil pressure can be maintained.
Since Clevy says he can maintain adequate oil pressure
I see no reason to still conclude he is still at risk to "spin a rod bearing" just because the oil he is using is technically a 20wt oil.



Because the bottom end on the Windsor (particularly the thin-walled 302) likes to move around a bit when really being worked. It isn't rigid like the one on the Modular.

My point regarding winter was that the oil temps are lower, subsequently the oil is heavier. We both know this to be true. My 0w-20 oil pressure in the winter was similar to my 0w-40 oil pressure in the dead heat of summer.

 

[Clevy]

Oil pressure is just under 50 pounds at 100km/hr,so not much different then the hemi I'm driving. Hot idle is at 22 pounds,again very similar to the hemi. I understand they are different engines,with the hemi pushing an easy 100hp more and I've got a 306 on deck for the fox so to be honest I am beating on this 302 a bit harder than I was simply because I've got another car to drive if it does spin a bearing or fails in some other way.

Just to be clear I am surprised the 20 grade has performed as well as it has to this point. I was sure the engine would have dissolved by now and I've only just recently begun to even use 20 grade oils. My stash is still primarily 30 and 40 grades with the exceptions being the 15 jugs of ultra I found on special and the Mobil 1 5w-20 I bought for the charger for mos2 fuel consumption testing.
So I'm still not a full convert. I've got a jug of liqui-moly 0w-40 at the ready just in case I chicken out.
Again. I'm not saying everyone go out and use a 20 grade in your old high mile engines. I'm am a bit more confident though with their use in a lower mile one though,using my experience with my own personal 1988 302 in my mustang.