OP: if you read your manual a bit more carefully, you will see that Toyots says that 0w20 oils is not well suited for high temp or heavy duty use.
Durability Toyota 0w-20 oil
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Originally Posted By: kschachn
This brave, principled stand you are taking is based on what again? Because everything I have seen on here points to a 5000 mile OCI with that oil as being pointless...
Originally Posted By: FZ1
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: JethroBodine
I am going to get flamed for this but I would NEVER run it 10k. Toyota makes great vehicles...but they have made so many huge mistakes on oil over the past 2-3 decades that I always question their judgement. My dealer has always told me to use synthetic and never go beyond 5000 miles and be sure you won't get a sludger. Frequent oil changes are cheap peace of mind IMO.
Ok gotta put my flame suit on
I agree so I'll join you with the flame suit.
Strength in numbers. They can't light us all up. 5k oci. It's hot out there,it's a thin oil,and it's a $35,000 vehicle.
Based on my,extreme,knowledge and judgement.
This brave, principled stand you are taking is based on what again? Because everything I have seen on here points to a 5000 mile OCI with that oil as being pointless...
Originally Posted By: FZ1
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: JethroBodine
I am going to get flamed for this but I would NEVER run it 10k. Toyota makes great vehicles...but they have made so many huge mistakes on oil over the past 2-3 decades that I always question their judgement. My dealer has always told me to use synthetic and never go beyond 5000 miles and be sure you won't get a sludger. Frequent oil changes are cheap peace of mind IMO.
Ok gotta put my flame suit on
I agree so I'll join you with the flame suit.
Strength in numbers. They can't light us all up. 5k oci. It's hot out there,it's a thin oil,and it's a $35,000 vehicle.
Based on my,extreme,knowledge and judgement.
I can understand the reluctance to extend an OCI for the first time but a 99% chance that a quality conventional oil like Pennzoil or Mobil would go your 5,000 miles with that much highway. I live in Oklahoma where we have the hottest 3 month period on record in the US and so we know hot. I run 20 weights in both of my vehicles and do a yearly OCI on both and have been doing so for years. Personally, I would do an used oil analysis at 7,000 miles if I were you because the 5,000 used oil analysis will be a waste of money.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
....
I wouldn't bother testing at 5K, too soon. Let it go for 10,000 miles and then test. Even on the off change that the used oil analysis indicated the oil was done, one slightly lengthy oil change won't affect your engine.
Even though there is probably no issue with TGMO going 10k, I can't agree with this statement. If there is any doubt about the oil, a $30 used oil analysis will give peace of mind and is cheap insurance.
....
I wouldn't bother testing at 5K, too soon. Let it go for 10,000 miles and then test. Even on the off change that the used oil analysis indicated the oil was done, one slightly lengthy oil change won't affect your engine.
Even though there is probably no issue with TGMO going 10k, I can't agree with this statement. If there is any doubt about the oil, a $30 used oil analysis will give peace of mind and is cheap insurance.
Originally Posted By: Kuato
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
....
I wouldn't bother testing at 5K, too soon. Let it go for 10,000 miles and then test. Even on the off change that the used oil analysis indicated the oil was done, one slightly lengthy oil change won't affect your engine.
Even though there is probably no issue with TGMO going 10k, I can't agree with this statement. If there is any doubt about the oil, a $30 used oil analysis will give peace of mind and is cheap insurance.
Why did you quote me only in part and therefore out of context?
You are being unduly conservative considering 10,000 miles is the recommended OCI and it's mostly highway miles.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
....
I wouldn't bother testing at 5K, too soon. Let it go for 10,000 miles and then test. Even on the off change that the used oil analysis indicated the oil was done, one slightly lengthy oil change won't affect your engine.
Even though there is probably no issue with TGMO going 10k, I can't agree with this statement. If there is any doubt about the oil, a $30 used oil analysis will give peace of mind and is cheap insurance.
Why did you quote me only in part and therefore out of context?
You are being unduly conservative considering 10,000 miles is the recommended OCI and it's mostly highway miles.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Welcome to BITOG!
Highway mileage is the easiest on motor oil (and your engine) and will maximize oil life. Under these conditions 10,000 miles should be a piece of cake.
You can look up a number of 10,000 mile used oil analysis on TGMO under less favourable conditions than yours.
I wouldn't bother testing at 5K, too soon. Let it go for 10,000 miles and then test. Even on the off change that the UOA indicated the oil was done, one slightly lengthy oil change won't affect your engine.
Here is your entire post; slightly out of context in this instance does not invalidate my point. Not trying to stir things up, I am simply disagreeing that for the very first UOA with this oil and vehicle, 10k is too long. You cannot possibly be certain about the oil's condition without a gradual increase in miles used. 5k and leaving it in at least until OP has the results back is IMO a better plan.
In my first post I did agree that the oil should be fine at that distance, but suggested spending $30 to be sure, and for OP's peace of mind. I don't think this thread would exist, had there been no doubt whatsoever. You can be as aggressive as you want with someone else's vehicle, but in the end the decision is theirs. I choose to be "unduly conservative" because $30 is cheaper than a new engine (hyperbole for emphasis) and managing risk is what I do every day in my chosen career.
Welcome to BITOG!
Highway mileage is the easiest on motor oil (and your engine) and will maximize oil life. Under these conditions 10,000 miles should be a piece of cake.
You can look up a number of 10,000 mile used oil analysis on TGMO under less favourable conditions than yours.
I wouldn't bother testing at 5K, too soon. Let it go for 10,000 miles and then test. Even on the off change that the UOA indicated the oil was done, one slightly lengthy oil change won't affect your engine.
Here is your entire post; slightly out of context in this instance does not invalidate my point. Not trying to stir things up, I am simply disagreeing that for the very first UOA with this oil and vehicle, 10k is too long. You cannot possibly be certain about the oil's condition without a gradual increase in miles used. 5k and leaving it in at least until OP has the results back is IMO a better plan.
In my first post I did agree that the oil should be fine at that distance, but suggested spending $30 to be sure, and for OP's peace of mind. I don't think this thread would exist, had there been no doubt whatsoever. You can be as aggressive as you want with someone else's vehicle, but in the end the decision is theirs. I choose to be "unduly conservative" because $30 is cheaper than a new engine (hyperbole for emphasis) and managing risk is what I do every day in my chosen career.
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You're both wrong!
7.5k!
7.5k!
The early 2010 manual calls for a 5k OCI with syn 0w-20. This manual was superceded and the OCI changed to 10K for normal duty. (Still 5k for "Special Operating Conditions")
I have a 2010. During the free service period I insisted Toyota honor their intitial agreement to follow the recommended service. My first OC out of warranty went 8k. I've got the sample sitting on my desk but haven't sent it in yet. I will post results when I receive them. I'm curious if the dealer actually used TGMO 0W-20 since everyone there always said to me "same as M1" and all their paperwork says M1.
I have a 2010. During the free service period I insisted Toyota honor their intitial agreement to follow the recommended service. My first OC out of warranty went 8k. I've got the sample sitting on my desk but haven't sent it in yet. I will post results when I receive them. I'm curious if the dealer actually used TGMO 0W-20 since everyone there always said to me "same as M1" and all their paperwork says M1.
Originally Posted By: 1000MPH
I'm curious if the dealer actually used TGMO 0W-20 since everyone there always said to me "same as M1" and all their paperwork says M1.
My local Toyota dealers don't use TGMO, but M1 instead. Probably cheaper in bulk.
I'm curious if the dealer actually used TGMO 0W-20 since everyone there always said to me "same as M1" and all their paperwork says M1.
My local Toyota dealers don't use TGMO, but M1 instead. Probably cheaper in bulk.
You would think that Toyota dealers would use TGMO to service Toyota vehicles, but some don't and the same for Honda dealers too. A local Honda dealer doesn't have HGMO 0W20 synthetic in bulk or in quart bottle.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
OP: if you read your manual a bit more carefully, you will see that Toyots says that 0w20 oils is not well suited for high temp or heavy duty use.
Actually it doesn't say that at all.
It says a heavier oil grade (the second number) may be more suitable for high speed driving and other extreme uses which is not the same thing as being "not well suited".
For example a heavier oil grade may be more suitable for continuous high speed drive to reduce possibly higher oil consumption. I would not conclude there is any lubrication advantage in running a heavier oil.
OP: if you read your manual a bit more carefully, you will see that Toyots says that 0w20 oils is not well suited for high temp or heavy duty use.
Actually it doesn't say that at all.
It says a heavier oil grade (the second number) may be more suitable for high speed driving and other extreme uses which is not the same thing as being "not well suited".
For example a heavier oil grade may be more suitable for continuous high speed drive to reduce possibly higher oil consumption. I would not conclude there is any lubrication advantage in running a heavier oil.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
OP: if you read your manual a bit more carefully, you will see that Toyots says that 0w20 oils is not well suited for high temp or heavy duty use.
Actually it doesn't say that at all.
It says a heavier oil grade (the second number) may be more suitable for high speed driving and other extreme uses which is not the same thing as being "not well suited".
For example a heavier oil grade may be more suitable for continuous high speed drive to reduce possibly higher oil consumption. I would not conclude there is any lubrication advantage in running a heavier oil.
Interesting idea...so when Ford pull the power on their engines when used hard, and specify a higher grade for the same engine on the track (sans neutering power), are you asserting it's due to potential oil consumption, not operating viscosity ?
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
OP: if you read your manual a bit more carefully, you will see that Toyots says that 0w20 oils is not well suited for high temp or heavy duty use.
Actually it doesn't say that at all.
It says a heavier oil grade (the second number) may be more suitable for high speed driving and other extreme uses which is not the same thing as being "not well suited".
For example a heavier oil grade may be more suitable for continuous high speed drive to reduce possibly higher oil consumption. I would not conclude there is any lubrication advantage in running a heavier oil.
Interesting idea...so when Ford pull the power on their engines when used hard, and specify a higher grade for the same engine on the track (sans neutering power), are you asserting it's due to potential oil consumption, not operating viscosity ?
Originally Posted By: jeffroski
Good Morning all, I have been a follower of BITOG for about 6 years and finally joined. This has been a very useful and informative board. I have a newer 2011 Toyota 4runner Trail Edition with the 4.0 liter V6 that takes the 0W-20 Synthetic Oil. I live in Phoenix Arizona where the temps during summer are over 110 daily. How durable is this oil? Toyota dealerships are saying its good for 10K miles, but the manual states 5K miles. The other day I heard a little engine noise that concerned me and wondered with the heat could this oil break down faster than the recommended oil change? I do almost 80 percent highway driving by the way, normally around 70 mph and 70 mile round trip daily. I have intentions when I reach the 5k mile mark to test a sample of the oil and have it sent in to the lab where I had all my previous oil testing done. I guess right now I'm looking for any pre-cautionary stories. I have read some very good things about Toyota's oil on this site and found nothing negative yet. Any advice would be appreciated. Thank You, Jeffro
Find out what that engine noise that concerns you is first. Then worry about engine oil and OCI's (big stuff vs. small stuff). Good luck!
Good Morning all, I have been a follower of BITOG for about 6 years and finally joined. This has been a very useful and informative board. I have a newer 2011 Toyota 4runner Trail Edition with the 4.0 liter V6 that takes the 0W-20 Synthetic Oil. I live in Phoenix Arizona where the temps during summer are over 110 daily. How durable is this oil? Toyota dealerships are saying its good for 10K miles, but the manual states 5K miles. The other day I heard a little engine noise that concerned me and wondered with the heat could this oil break down faster than the recommended oil change? I do almost 80 percent highway driving by the way, normally around 70 mph and 70 mile round trip daily. I have intentions when I reach the 5k mile mark to test a sample of the oil and have it sent in to the lab where I had all my previous oil testing done. I guess right now I'm looking for any pre-cautionary stories. I have read some very good things about Toyota's oil on this site and found nothing negative yet. Any advice would be appreciated. Thank You, Jeffro
Find out what that engine noise that concerns you is first. Then worry about engine oil and OCI's (big stuff vs. small stuff). Good luck!
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
OP: if you read your manual a bit more carefully, you will see that Toyots says that 0w20 oils is not well suited for high temp or heavy duty use.
Actually it doesn't say that at all.
It says a heavier oil grade (the second number) may be more suitable for high speed driving and other extreme uses which is not the same thing as being "not well suited".
For example a heavier oil grade may be more suitable for continuous high speed drive to reduce possibly higher oil consumption. I would not conclude there is any lubrication advantage in running a heavier oil.
Interesting idea...so when Ford pull the power on their engines when used hard, and specify a higher grade for the same engine on the track (sans neutering power), are you asserting it's due to potential oil consumption, not operating viscosity ?
That's what I was thinking as well. If Toyota was concerned about oil consumption, they would not have 1 qt per 1000 miles oil consumption rate as acceptable.
We can all play on words and try to guess what Toyota really means by their choice of wording in the manual, but the bottom line is that even Toyota acknowledges that 0W20 is not suited for all driving conditions, hence the paragraph in the owner's manual.
So we have operational viscosity vs. oil consumption argument here for a heavy SUV that is driven mostly highway miles for extended periods of time in one of the hottest areas around. Hmm, in the absence of data, wouldn't it be prudent to address the highest risk scenario instead of other way around? I have yet to see any engineering best practices advising to assume the best case scenario, but when it's not your car on the line I guess it's easy to just say "don't worry be happy".
And knowing BITOG even if the engine develops a problem the oil will never be blamed because OP probably won't do engine teardown and inspection to know for certain what failed and why.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
OP: if you read your manual a bit more carefully, you will see that Toyots says that 0w20 oils is not well suited for high temp or heavy duty use.
Actually it doesn't say that at all.
It says a heavier oil grade (the second number) may be more suitable for high speed driving and other extreme uses which is not the same thing as being "not well suited".
For example a heavier oil grade may be more suitable for continuous high speed drive to reduce possibly higher oil consumption. I would not conclude there is any lubrication advantage in running a heavier oil.
Interesting idea...so when Ford pull the power on their engines when used hard, and specify a higher grade for the same engine on the track (sans neutering power), are you asserting it's due to potential oil consumption, not operating viscosity ?
That's what I was thinking as well. If Toyota was concerned about oil consumption, they would not have 1 qt per 1000 miles oil consumption rate as acceptable.
We can all play on words and try to guess what Toyota really means by their choice of wording in the manual, but the bottom line is that even Toyota acknowledges that 0W20 is not suited for all driving conditions, hence the paragraph in the owner's manual.
So we have operational viscosity vs. oil consumption argument here for a heavy SUV that is driven mostly highway miles for extended periods of time in one of the hottest areas around. Hmm, in the absence of data, wouldn't it be prudent to address the highest risk scenario instead of other way around? I have yet to see any engineering best practices advising to assume the best case scenario, but when it's not your car on the line I guess it's easy to just say "don't worry be happy".
And knowing BITOG even if the engine develops a problem the oil will never be blamed because OP probably won't do engine teardown and inspection to know for certain what failed and why.
CATERHAM has previously acknowledged that "modern" recommendations in First World Countries are reducing the headroom in operational viscosities versus operational parameters, and even lauded Ford at neutering their advertised power output to prevent damage under unreasonably spirited operation...so I find it interesting that the viscosity recommendation is now diverted to an oil consumption issue.
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
That's what I was thinking as well. If Toyota was concerned about oil consumption, they would not have 1 qt per 1000 miles oil consumption rate as acceptable.
Almost all mfg's of which I'm aware had similar language. Volvo specified "up to" 1qt per 600 mile on an engine spec'd with a heavy oil. Grade has nothing to do with; covering their behinds for warranty claims (and shutting up whining consumers complaining about small consumption "problems") has everything to do with it. Toyota's had the "1 qt per 1,000 miles" guideline long before they spec'd 20W oils.
Also note that the most notorious oil-consuming Toyota engines used 30 weight oils.
That's what I was thinking as well. If Toyota was concerned about oil consumption, they would not have 1 qt per 1000 miles oil consumption rate as acceptable.
Almost all mfg's of which I'm aware had similar language. Volvo specified "up to" 1qt per 600 mile on an engine spec'd with a heavy oil. Grade has nothing to do with; covering their behinds for warranty claims (and shutting up whining consumers complaining about small consumption "problems") has everything to do with it. Toyota's had the "1 qt per 1,000 miles" guideline long before they spec'd 20W oils.
Also note that the most notorious oil-consuming Toyota engines used 30 weight oils.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
CATERHAM has previously acknowledged that "modern" recommendations in First World Countries are reducing the headroom in operational viscosities versus operational parameters, and even lauded Ford at neutering their advertised power output to prevent damage under unreasonably spirited operation...so I find it interesting that the viscosity recommendation is now diverted to an oil consumption issue.
Here's what the manual actually says:
First, about oil consumption:
-Engine oil consumption
A certain amount of engine oil will be consumed while driving. In the following
situations, oil consumption may increase, and engine oil may need to be
refilled in between oil maintenance intervals.
-When the engine is new, for example directly after purchasing the vehicle
or after replacing the engine
-If low quality oil or oil of an inappropriate viscosity is used
-When driving at high engine speeds or with a heavy load, when towing,
or when driving while accelerating or decelerating frequently
-When leaving the engine idling for a long time, or when driving frequently
through heavy traffic
Second, about oil viscosity/selection:
-Engine oil selection
“Toyota Genuine Motor Oil” is used in your Toyota vehicle. Use Toyota approved “Toyota Genuine Motor Oil” or equivalent to satisfy the following grade and viscosity.
Oil grade: ILSAC GF-5 multigrade engine oil
Recommended viscosity: SAE 0W-20
SAE 0W-20 is the best choice for good fuel economy and good starting in cold weather.
If SAE 0W-20 is not available, SAE 5W-20 oil may be used. However, it must be replaced
with SAE 0W-20 at the next oil change.
Oil viscosity (0W-20 is explained here as an example):
• The 0W in 0W-20 indicates the characteristic of the oil which allows
cold startability. Oils with a lower value before the W allow for easier
starting of the engine in cold weather.
• The 20 in 0W-20 indicates the viscosity characteristic of the oil when
the oil is at high temperature. An oil with a higher viscosity (one with a
higher value) may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high
speeds, or under extreme load conditions.
Since high speed and extreme load are first discussed as contributors to increased oil consumption, and then the same two parameters are cited as possible reasons for choosing a higher viscosity oil, I think CATERHAM's statement is logical.
CATERHAM has previously acknowledged that "modern" recommendations in First World Countries are reducing the headroom in operational viscosities versus operational parameters, and even lauded Ford at neutering their advertised power output to prevent damage under unreasonably spirited operation...so I find it interesting that the viscosity recommendation is now diverted to an oil consumption issue.
Here's what the manual actually says:
First, about oil consumption:
-Engine oil consumption
A certain amount of engine oil will be consumed while driving. In the following
situations, oil consumption may increase, and engine oil may need to be
refilled in between oil maintenance intervals.
-When the engine is new, for example directly after purchasing the vehicle
or after replacing the engine
-If low quality oil or oil of an inappropriate viscosity is used
-When driving at high engine speeds or with a heavy load, when towing,
or when driving while accelerating or decelerating frequently
-When leaving the engine idling for a long time, or when driving frequently
through heavy traffic
Second, about oil viscosity/selection:
-Engine oil selection
“Toyota Genuine Motor Oil” is used in your Toyota vehicle. Use Toyota approved “Toyota Genuine Motor Oil” or equivalent to satisfy the following grade and viscosity.
Oil grade: ILSAC GF-5 multigrade engine oil
Recommended viscosity: SAE 0W-20
SAE 0W-20 is the best choice for good fuel economy and good starting in cold weather.
If SAE 0W-20 is not available, SAE 5W-20 oil may be used. However, it must be replaced
with SAE 0W-20 at the next oil change.
Oil viscosity (0W-20 is explained here as an example):
• The 0W in 0W-20 indicates the characteristic of the oil which allows
cold startability. Oils with a lower value before the W allow for easier
starting of the engine in cold weather.
• The 20 in 0W-20 indicates the viscosity characteristic of the oil when
the oil is at high temperature. An oil with a higher viscosity (one with a
higher value) may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high
speeds, or under extreme load conditions.
Since high speed and extreme load are first discussed as contributors to increased oil consumption, and then the same two parameters are cited as possible reasons for choosing a higher viscosity oil, I think CATERHAM's statement is logical.
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These are all the reasons per the above for oil consumption:
Quote:
- When the engine is new, for example directly after purchasing the vehicle
or after replacing the engine
- If low quality oil or oil of an inappropriate viscosity is used
- When driving at high engine speeds or with a heavy load, when towing,
or when driving while accelerating or decelerating frequently
- When leaving the engine idling for a long time, or when driving frequently
through heavy traffic
High engine speeds and heavy loads are just one of the points above. So why wouldn't all other points warrant heavier oil use if oil consumption was the only concern?
I see no logic in Catheram's view point at all.
Quote:
- When the engine is new, for example directly after purchasing the vehicle
or after replacing the engine
- If low quality oil or oil of an inappropriate viscosity is used
- When driving at high engine speeds or with a heavy load, when towing,
or when driving while accelerating or decelerating frequently
- When leaving the engine idling for a long time, or when driving frequently
through heavy traffic
High engine speeds and heavy loads are just one of the points above. So why wouldn't all other points warrant heavier oil use if oil consumption was the only concern?
I see no logic in Catheram's view point at all.
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
OP: if you read your manual a bit more carefully, you will see that Toyots says that 0w20 oils is not well suited for high temp or heavy duty use.
Actually it doesn't say that at all.
It says a heavier oil grade (the second number) may be more suitable for high speed driving and other extreme uses which is not the same thing as being "not well suited".
For example a heavier oil grade may be more suitable for continuous high speed drive to reduce possibly higher oil consumption. I would not conclude there is any lubrication advantage in running a heavier oil.
Interesting idea...so when Ford pull the power on their engines when used hard, and specify a higher grade for the same engine on the track (sans neutering power), are you asserting it's due to potential oil consumption, not operating viscosity ?
Not exactly correct.
Ford (like most modern manufacturers) have electronic safeties that will kick in if oil temp's get too high but these nanny overrides are not easily triggered, certainly not on the street.
Attached is a 9,500 mile UOA of Mobil 1 0W-20 in a 2012 400+ hp Mustang GT that included some track useage:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=2981823&page=2
The maximum oil temp's on track was 230F which was not high enough to trigger the safeties.
Secondly, Ford does not recommend a heavier oil grade for the Mustang GT even for track use. If the nanny systems are kicking in too frequently, they recommend instead installing the optional factory oil cooler.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
OP: if you read your manual a bit more carefully, you will see that Toyots says that 0w20 oils is not well suited for high temp or heavy duty use.
Actually it doesn't say that at all.
It says a heavier oil grade (the second number) may be more suitable for high speed driving and other extreme uses which is not the same thing as being "not well suited".
For example a heavier oil grade may be more suitable for continuous high speed drive to reduce possibly higher oil consumption. I would not conclude there is any lubrication advantage in running a heavier oil.
Interesting idea...so when Ford pull the power on their engines when used hard, and specify a higher grade for the same engine on the track (sans neutering power), are you asserting it's due to potential oil consumption, not operating viscosity ?
Not exactly correct.
Ford (like most modern manufacturers) have electronic safeties that will kick in if oil temp's get too high but these nanny overrides are not easily triggered, certainly not on the street.
Attached is a 9,500 mile UOA of Mobil 1 0W-20 in a 2012 400+ hp Mustang GT that included some track useage:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?
ubb=showflat&Number=2981823&page=2
The maximum oil temp's on track was 230F which was not high enough to trigger the safeties.
Secondly, Ford does not recommend a heavier oil grade for the Mustang GT even for track use. If the nanny systems are kicking in too frequently, they recommend instead installing the optional factory oil cooler.
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